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  #1  
Old 07-04-2014, 08:26 AM
Bruinpilot Bruinpilot is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: The Woodlands, TX
Posts: 30
Default RV-7 vs aircraft #2

I apologize as I am sure that a million similar threads have been posted, but on the other hand, no two situations or motivations to build a homebuilt are alike.

I have been reading for about a month since I have considered trying to make a homebuilt, and I think that I will force myself to draw this process out for at least a year before making the final decision as to which aircraft kit is the right one. Over the past month, the rv7 has rapidly risen to #1 on my top five list (which also has other Vans aircraft on it!). A friend has really been pushing aircraft #2, which is a simpler tube and fabric airplane. How can I have two such disparate aircraft as #s 1&2? People will surely say that I need to "define the mission" better -- perhaps that is the case, but my mission is not very specific. I hope,for those patient enough to read this, to get some input.

I will start with a brief description if myself and "the mission," or at least the perceived mission at this point. I have been flying for decades (but I don't think I'm an old guy yet! I started very young.) I have flown all kinds of airplanes, but never built from a kit. My friend who is pushing aircraft 2 owned a glasair but never built one. Here is what I perceive as my mission. First, I want the experience of building. (Any kit plane should be able to fulfill that, right?) I have a brother and my best friend are IAs and told me that if they watch and document what I am doing that it may even be a good start toward getting the time for an A&P certificate. (cool bonus) Second, I want to build an economical machine. If I could build one that required no hangar, that might be a done deal, however, I think I will ultimately be stuck with that expense. I have read that many of the aircraft with folding wings or trailer able designs may not be convenient, or even safe over time of repeated disassembly. So, I have come to terms with eventually getting a hangar when the build is complete. I like the fact that the rv has a reasonable fuel burn for burning holes in the sky, but is downright efficient when one actually goes somewhere. Aircraft #2 burns less for the local work, but the rv crushes it cross country. This is where the mission comes in, because aircraft #2 really beats the rv for local work and hitting up the dirt strips. Well, where I currently live, and expect to live in the future, I probably won't be hitting the dirt, or living in my dream home in a little tiny mountain or desert town. (My job keeps me near the big cities.). So the third mission parameter, is that I want a machine that is fun to fly. I can have great fun landing on small dirt back country strips in aircraft #2, but I live in Houston now, so the back country is a little far right now. The rv, I've heard is also fun to fly, some light aerobatics are great fun, plus, I think the rv might be just fine on some smaller grass strips, which while not really rough back country stuff, would really put a smile on my face, and with its performance, I could visit quite a few. Fourth parameter, and this is where the rv kills aircraft #2, is that we have a lot of family and friends about 1000 miles away. That's still a day trip with a fuel stop for the rv, it sounds more like an epic voyage for aircraft #2. My final considerations are more minor, as ultimately both the rv7 and aircraft #2 are capable of them. My wife insists that any airplane that we own or build must have side by side seating (sadly no decathlon. I took her up in it and she didn't like it, but she loved the Grumman Traveler that I used to own, which is like a bigger slower rv! I loved the fighter like handling, at least compared to the trusty old 172.) maybe that is why aircraft #2 pulls on my heart strings a little, because it is like a non aerobatic version of my decathlon, with side by side seats. The final consideration that I have, is that my wife tells me that she really wants me to teach her to fly (I am a cfi). I don't think she really wants too much solo time, but wants the accomplishment, and would feel safer when up with me if she could fly. So that is in the cards some day. My son as well may want to learn, but that is over ten years off (time to finish a kit!) This is where my friend thinks that aircraft #2 would make a much better trainer, and he is probably right, although an rv may make a better instrument trainer, if I equip it properly. I personally have taught people to fly in all kinds of aircraft, so I know that teaching in the rv may be possible. I also do have a Cessna 172 available in the family, but it is 1800 miles away, so worst case we go there for the first 10 hours of flight time...

Anyways I know this is ridiculously long winded and I appreciate the time anyone takes to read or comment. I will still have many months to ponder this. I am going to order the tool box kit from Vans within the next month or so, just to evaluate if I have the skill level required. I think that thing is a great idea. It's cheap and they say it requires almost all the skills needed to build. I have rebuilt my truck's motor, but don't know how well working on my truck will translate to building a plane. We will see. Thanks for the input.
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  #2  
Old 07-04-2014, 08:53 AM
rockwoodrv9 rockwoodrv9 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Meridian ID, Aspen CO, Okemos MI
Posts: 2,645
Default

Your choice of two such different planes is not that uncommon. When I was trying to figure out what I wanted to build, the three at the top of my list were the 12, 9, and Kitfox. All three are great planes for their specific mission. The Kitfox is about as fun as it gets at a reasonable price if you want to fly low and slow. It opens a whole new world of places to go and do.

I chose the 9A because I live in the mountains and I believe the 12 is a bit underpowered for high altitude flying. Our mission is travel to visit kids and grandkids. The 9A is designed for what I want and powerful enough to get me out of high mountain airports. I still find myself looking at the adds for a Kitfox and will be looking at one on Monday. What I am saying, is you may need two planes!!
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  #3  
Old 07-04-2014, 09:11 AM
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wirejock wirejock is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Estes Park, CO
Posts: 3,947
Default Welcome

Welcome Patrick
It sounds like you've already talked your self into the 7.
Buy the Vans tool box kit. Find a local mentor. There are several in your area.
Build the tool box with your mentor.
After that you should have a good feel for building. You can then start looking for tools.
If your not happy with building, you can always buy one. Personally I find it enjoyable and challenging but it's not for everyone. It's a serious commitment for both builder and family.
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Estes Park, CO
http://wirejockrv7a.blogspot.com
wirejock at yahoo dot com
Donated 12/03/2019, plus a little extra.
RV-7A #73391, N511RV reserved (2,000+ hours)
HS SB, empennage, tanks, wings, fuse, working finishing kit
Disclaimer
I cannot be, nor will I be, held responsible if you try to do the same things I do and it does not work and/or causes you loss, injury, or even death in the process.
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  #4  
Old 07-04-2014, 09:15 AM
Mel's Avatar
Mel Mel is online now
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
Posts: 10,768
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You're not going to get much guidance until you define "aircraft #2".
I've been involved in building and inspecting homebuilts since the late '70s and have never heard of "aircraft #2".
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Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
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  #5  
Old 07-04-2014, 09:21 AM
Loren Loren is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 36
Default Not really a tough decision...

This is really very simple...#2 is #2 for a reason. I finished my RV7 a year and a half ago. I'm hangered at Lone Star in Conroe along with about 30 other Rv's. PM me if you'd like to get together and talk building or flying. It's a great RV community which you just don't get with #2.
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  #6  
Old 07-04-2014, 09:48 AM
erich weaver's Avatar
erich weaver erich weaver is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: santa barbara, CA
Posts: 1,682
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There was very little in your description that really favored #2. Dirt strip capability and not much else. You will love the RV even for local flights and it can always be throttled back to a very miserly fuel flow rate. I don't see any problem instructing in the RV. Even if it does take slightly longer to reach competency, who cares? You are going to want to do some longer trips and there is no comparison there. Easy decision.
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  #7  
Old 07-04-2014, 10:09 AM
Bruinpilot Bruinpilot is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: The Woodlands, TX
Posts: 30
Default

Thanks for the good info. I think at this point I have made up my mind on the rv7, but I am always looking for pros and cons, as I said I want to think for a while about this decision, but in the meantime, I can't wait to get started on the tool kit and to see what is involved working with the metal. Luckily I have an air compressor and a lot of tools, mostly automotive though. I will need to get some good aircraft related tools, probably as I work on the tool kit it will give me a good beginning assessment of what I will need, and what I would like...
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  #8  
Old 07-04-2014, 11:07 AM
MauiLvrs's Avatar
MauiLvrs MauiLvrs is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: KTCY
Posts: 643
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruinpilot View Post
Thanks for the good info. I think at this point I have made up my mind on the rv7, but I am always looking for pros and cons
Think about the RV9...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockwoodrv9 View Post
I chose the 9A because I live in the mountains and I believe the 12 is a bit underpowered for high altitude flying. Our mission is travel to visit kids and grandkids. The 9A is designed for what I want and powerful enough to get me out of high mountain airports.
I'll second this suggestion...
I wanted a 7 ... She wanted a 9...
Her winning argument... its 10 mph slower stall speed.
We spend a lot of time in the mountains and its slower stall speed improves survivability in an off field event.

We can lumber along at 110 kts at about 5 gph ...
or get 145 kts at 6.5-7 gph at altitude.

The 9 was designed for cross country flight and it does a great job at it.
When I feel the need for for the extra speed of a 7 ... I feel better about not having it at the pumps.
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  #9  
Old 07-04-2014, 11:22 AM
Canadian_JOY Canadian_JOY is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,291
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One of the designs on the market that comes closest to striking a compromise between a grass-strip ragwing taildragger and a cross country speed demon is the Glasair Sportsman and its predecessor/little brother, the GlaStar. They aren't Super Cubs in terms of dirt strip performance, but they do very well (Sportsman needs 400' at gross ISA). With an O-360 they will make decent speed (140kts), and they really shine when it comes to hauling a lot of stuff since they have a cavernous cargo area and generous weight allowance (300lbs for the Sportsman if built as a 2-seater).

These airplanes give you exposure to a true composite aircraft - welded steel tube frame like the ragwing taildragger, fiberglass fuselage, and conventional aluminum flying surfaces. Plus they give you the ability to easily convert from tricycle to tail dragger to floats to skis. The wings fold easily, but not many owners will admit to wanting to fold them on a daily basis unless they have a helper.

Acquisition cost of a Sportsman is pretty high, but many GlaStars are reasonably priced. Partially-completed GlaStar kits can often be found at very reasonable prices.

I'm building a Sportsman while being surrounded by RV'ers at the airport. The standing joke is that when we go camping together I'll let the RV get there in advance and stake out the best camping spot while we haul all the gear in our Sportsman! LoL
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  #10  
Old 07-04-2014, 02:09 PM
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N941WR N941WR is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 12,887
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As a friend of mine said, there is a reason that there are over 7,000 RV's flying!

Also, don't count on your build time applying towards your A&P. Some FSDO's say no to that because you are not building/maintaining to a Type Certificate. Don't ask me why, but I have heard a number of people having their build time rejected. It didn't used to be that way but it seems to be an issue as of the last few years.
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