RV-12 Formation Flying Interest?

[Dvalcik]

Originally Posted by todehnal

McFarlane's vernier throttle fixes that problem................Tom

I agree - I put one in from the start of the build and love it.

[Bill_H]

This weekend was the KC Flight formation clinic and 3 of us RV12s showed up to learn. Formation flight has had much written about it so I am concentrating on the RV12 aspect.

Boy, it was challenging and fun! Weather was a bit of a factor. Arriving Friday about noon, we were able to get in a flight that combined familiarization of our safety pilots with the RV12, and a basic introduction to formation techniques. All new folks also do a ride-along with the experienced to see what's going on without the stress of being the pilot. I had done that several times back in November '13 at the Pine Bluff clinic.

Friday also included a thorough briefing on the basics of formation and safety.

On Saturday, we got in two RV1formation training flights. We did this in a 3 ship formation. Weather became a factor in the afternoon and precluded a 3rd and 4th.

It was hoped to do 3 flights on Sunday, (including a big ~14 ship formation) plus several attendees also come to these clinics to get their certification checkouts, having practiced back at their bases. So there was a slight shortage of pilots able to act as safety pilots for us not-yet-qualified-to-fly-formation-without-a-safety-pilot RV12 folks. We 12's rode along as passengers for the 1st Sunday sortie. (Again, this is VERY educational and worth the price of admission by itself!) Then weather shut us down for any further work. Plus travel back to home base on Sunday meant some had to leave ahead of another incoming storm.

The KC Flight folks putting on the event did a super job with logistics and food. Had a van and a stretch limo (!) to shuttle non-locals to and from the hotel. Best $50 event you will ever attend. Plus, just hanging around the airport and talking RVs makes for a great weekend.

Now a revised copy of the FFI formation guide was written with an RV12 appendix and we used that. It was an unproven draft, so we have some recommended tweaks to it.

1. In flight, using a RV2 stabilator flutter as a signal is not very noticeable. The all-flying tail on the 12 doesn't move much. The same is true for the flaperons. So an exaggerated wing rock seems needed. Likely, -12 formation work might use more radio than is "standard" - but hey, the object is to have fun.

2. A couple of pounds of forward trim is a good idea.

3. The RV12 is very maneuverable and has no control issues for formation.

4. We only had a three ship. One issue with maneuvering flight is power reserve without exceeding 5500 rpm. 90-95 knots was too fast. While 85 knots was working for a 3 ship, it was thought that adding a #4 might prove taxing, so 80 might be necessary,

5. Overhead patterns for landing were fun and not a problem, but downwind-base- final speeds of (knots) 75, 65, 60 worked out better than the lower numbers in the FFI draft version 2.6.

6. The flaperon hinge-to-spinner line worked fine. But there is some thought to using a vertical line defined from where the front of the vertical stabilizer touches the fuselage, rather than the vertical screw line several inches aft of that. Or, maybe a trailing-edge-of-stabilator-to-back-of-rudder line. We ran out of time to test a different line in flight.

7. Assuming that line is not changed, place a foot long vertical strip of contrasting color tape on the VS leading edge fairing screw line, both sides. That line can be very hard to see. On my rudder (white in that spot) black electrical tape worked well, it is available in other colors. On the flat vertical-face ends of the outboard stabilator tips, also use color tape on the front couple of inches - the outboard ribs defining the leading edge. That is to better see the stabilizer tip relative to the taped line. Some paint schemes have the stabilator tip color identical to the fuselage paint, difficult to detect. Better contrast is needed. So from the wingman viewpoint the stabilizer tip would look like a rounded pointer.

8. Other RV types could easily LEAD qualified RV12s in practice training outside of the clinics. Just throttle back. One issue might be potential overheating of the non-RV12 plane at prolonged speeds of 80-85 knots. (Not a problem for the -12) Comments?

9. Throttle springs! You will be moving the throttle constantly, often fairly large power changes. I have the stock Van's throttle, BUT with the weaker springs sourced from a different thread on this forum, and it works out fine. You adjust the friction knob to be in effect a moderate amount, not a large amount, and you can freely make rapid throttle changes and it won't try to pull out of your hand. You do not want it loosened all of the way!

I may consider even weaker springs for use when formate-ing, or try none at all for that task. I think the normal engine vibration will keep the throttles "even" without the springs. (Some say that is ONE of the reasons for them. Comments? Several like the McFarlane's vernier throttle but I would like to hear from someone that uses it in formation. True vernier throttles are frowned upon for formation, but I think the McFarlane's is of a different type for which the objections might not be relevant.)

In summary - this is fun, challenging, and we need MORE 12s to make it even more fun!

Bill H.
RV12 N412BR "Sweetie" (the plane's name, not my call sign! Thinking "Robot" would be good for that.)

[Dvalcik]

Bill my comments in Red. I have been training with a few guys on the east coast. Scott was my safety pilot and I have had some time off of another RV12, but most training is off of his RV 8, usually #1 and I am #2

Originally Posted by Bill_H

1. In flight, using a RV2 stabilator flutter as a signal is not very noticeable. The all-flying tail on the 12 doesn't move much. The same is true for the flaperons. So an exaggerated wing rock seems needed. Likely, -12 formation work might use more radio than is "standard" - but hey, the object is to have fun. I agree

2. A couple of pounds of forward trim is a good idea. Scott and I discussed this today and it does help

3. The RV12 is very maneuverable and has no control issues for formation. I agree if keeping it in the envelope in the new manual

4. We only had a three ship. One issue with maneuvering flight is power reserve without exceeding 5500 rpm. 90-95 knots was too fast. While 85 knots was working for a 3 ship, it was thought that adding a #4 might prove taxing, so 80 might be necessary, For a two ship I found that 85 - 90 is ok

5. Overhead patterns for landing were fun and not a problem, but downwind-base- final speeds of (knots) 75, 65, 60 worked out better than the lower numbers in the FFI draft version 2.6. I agree and today with an overhead break when I flew off of Scott's RV8 today, I was doing 100 kts then break on 2, I did 80kt, 65kt, and 60kt with nice separation

8. Other RV types could easily LEAD qualified RV12s in practice training outside of the clinics. Just throttle back. One issue might be potential overheating at prolonged speeds of 80-85 knots. Comments? I'm #2 off of Scott's RV8 for no more than 30 min at 90-100 and that seams good. But I like 85 - 90 with another RV12.

9. Throttle springs! You will be moving the throttle constantly, often fairly large power changes. I have the stock Van's throttle, BUT with the weaker springs sourced from a different thread on this forum, and it works out fine. You adjust the friction knob to be in effect a moderate amount, not a large amount, and you can freely make rapid throttle changes and it won't try to pull out of your hand. You do not want it loosened all of the way!

I may consider even weaker springs for use when formate-ing, or try none at all for that task. I think the normal engine vibration will keep the throttles "even" without the springs. (Some say that is ONE of the reasons for them. Comments? Several like the McFarlane's vernier throttle but I would like to hear from someone that uses it in formation. True vernier throttles are frowned upon for formation, but I think the McFarlane's is of a different type for which the objections might not be relevant.) Bill recommend the vernier throttle for the Rotax, it does not have the push button lock and is very smooth to use. I have had one from Day 1 of her first flight.

Bill Nice write up and glad you had a good time. I wish I could have been there

[Geico266]

Nice write up Bill. A good assessment of the capable -12.

Maybe I miss mine a little.

[Peterk]

For those RV12 drivers that might be interested in a clinic near you. More input.

- The KC Flight group is EAA culture to the core. Your need for education, entertainment and eating is the rule. Instantly inclusive!
- The nature of the game requires complete honesty, thick skin and humility. You will be called out on your flying (and for anything you do that can get a laugh!). There is no time allocated in formation flying for a pity party. It is extremely important to know the people you are flying that close to.
- The throttle spring is a personal issue. Four or five safety pilots flew the RV12 in fingertip formation immediately. As "Detour" mentioned earlier, you are constantly making lots of small changes so if you can adjust the friction to your satisfaction its fine. Of all the things going through your mind during this endeavor, the throttle spring is not even on the radar.
- I wouldn't try this at home. I would (and you must) practice it at home with another clinic attendee. There is way too much already discovered knowledge to absorb. It would take you weeks and months of trial and error (and paint) to re-invent this wheel. If an RV formation clinic offers you help, jump on it.
- The briefing/debriefing is SO important. All of the "rules" are set in stone before you fly and each broken rule is dismembered when you return. Its amazing how everyone remembers each and every moment of the flight. They don't dwell on it during but it is retained.
- Everyone's learning curve is different. Bill H. for instance picked it up quicker than I did and will probably solo soon. That doesn't mean you can't do it. It just means everyone learns different things at a different pace.
- Is it scary? Yes! For you and the safety pilot. Regardless, your safety pilot will keep harassing you to "get closer", "move in" etc. You will be saying, "No way," "I'm a sissy," "Mom!" You have to get past that and just do it.
- The purpose behind the adventure is discussed often. It ranges from "chicks dig it" to the thrill of a 50 ship formation. At the core, it is a challenge. Everyone involved seems to find value in the effort required to be proficient in something this difficult. I was impressed, humbled and exhausted. What fun!

[N282S]

Originally Posted by Peterk

For those RV12 drivers that might be interested in a clinic near you. More input.

- The KC Flight group is EAA culture to the core. Your need for education, entertainment and eating is the rule. Instantly inclusive!
- The nature of the game requires complete honesty, thick skin and humility. You will be called out on your flying (and for anything you do that can get a laugh!). There is no time allocated in formation flying for a pity party. It is extremely important to know the people you are flying that close to.
- The throttle spring is a personal issue. Four or five safety pilots flew the RV12 in fingertip formation immediately. As "Detour" mentioned earlier, you are constantly making lots of small changes so if you can adjust the friction to your satisfaction its fine. Of all the things going through your mind during this endeavor, the throttle spring is not even on the radar.
- I wouldn't try this at home. I would (and you must) practice it at home with another clinic attendee. There is way too much already discovered knowledge to absorb. It would take you weeks and months of trial and error (and paint) to re-invent this wheel. If an RV formation clinic offers you help, jump on it.
- The briefing/debriefing is SO important. All of the "rules" are set in stone before you fly and each broken rule is dismembered when you return. Its amazing how everyone remembers each and every moment of the flight. They don't dwell on it during but it is retained.
- Everyone's learning curve is different. Bill H. for instance picked it up quicker than I did and will probably solo soon. That doesn't mean you can't do it. It just means everyone learns different things at a different pace.
- Is it scary? Yes! For you and the safety pilot. Regardless, your safety pilot will keep harassing you to "get closer", "move in" etc. You will be saying, "No way," "I'm a sissy," "Mom!" You have to get past that and just do it.
- The purpose behind the adventure is discussed often. It ranges from "chicks dig it" to the thrill of a 50 ship formation. At the core, it is a challenge. Everyone involved seems to find value in the effort required to be proficient in something this difficult. I was impressed, humbled and exhausted. What fun!

First, thanks to Condor for the travel, time and personal dedication to the 12's !!

I included the full quote since it bears re-reading.
Truly glad to have the 12's show such great interest at the clinic. And, I was so looking forward for the ride-along on the second go Sunday, but the weather precluded it. You guys are at the ground floor of building your own RV12 formation culture. Take baby steps. Document your changes for standardization. Be safe. Have fun.
Thanks for coming and you all better come back next year and bring more 12s with you.

Boomer

[JoeBlank]

It's great to hear all of the feedback and new experiences of the RV-12 and Safety Pilots in a formation clinic setting. As Boomer said "You guys are at the ground floor of building your own RV-12 formation culture." We are breaking new ground here and it's important to remember to stay involved with formation flying as it's a perishable skill and we're still developing this program. The -12 is a different enough platform with it's own set of idiosyncrasies but it is equal amongst it's own. And that's where we will keep it.

With pilots sweating the 3rd Class Medical issue, the -12 now simply breathes new life into the formation community for those dealing with that issue. I think that is the most valuable benefit to come out of this... Enjoy!

[Tom Delaney]

The formation clinic was all I hoped it would be! Short on time on time so enjoy the photos:

The briefings were very thorough. It was confidence building to see even the experienced flyers going through even the most basic fundamentals in order that nothing would be missed or overlooked.


I landed, introduced myself and within the hour I was flying with Bill Gill in his RV7.


Bill "Robot" in "Sweetie"


Pete, (Peterk)

[Bill_H]

Pete - thanks for the kind words but I don't think I picked it up faster than anyone else! I had the benefit of some ride-alongs at the November Pine Bluff clinic. Those are really key for letting one begin to understand what is going on without the pressure of being the pilot! It really helps with the "drinking from a fire hose" phenomenon. In fact, a ride along is so much fun and so educational that lots more folks with any type of RV should attend a clinic just for that. (But READ THE MATERIALS!.)

Now, the organizers might wince at that, because they have to try to schedule flights with safety pilots for us newbies, but perhaps you could register as "non-flying" or something...

[rsipp]

Great thread, particularly the emphasis on good training and proper attitude.
All of the developing parameters: performance envelope, position indicators are coming together nicely. I would think the limited performance envelope would be a consideration for flights of mixed RV types, BUT the 12 can do well with a large number of other similar power to weight ratio airplanes. The limiting factor will be the limited available excess power for #4 and can be mitigated by the suggested moderate speeds and power settings used by the leader.

I flew a simple formation demo as a wingman for a Stinson and it worked well. With about a 5 sec takeoff spacing we were in position after about 30 degrees of leads turn out of traffic.

As others have noted, if you get the bug and have the right attitude it is some of the most fun you will have in an RV. Flying on a cross country with 12 or more of your closest RV formation buds and landing at OSH is satisfying to say the least.

Oh, the handle thing; common practice says you have no input in that. Your formation partners and circumstances will dictate what your handle becomes.
We had the distinct honor several years ago of submitting the winning handle suggestion for Team Aeordynamics/Team RV leader Mike Stewart: "Kahuna"

An often heard comment on lead training flights, "Lead sucks"


RV12 formation?
"Frogman" is in, just say when and where.

Dick Sipp
RV-4 Sold
RV-10 540 hours
RV-12 35 hours (built for owner)
FFI Wingman, Team RV wingman retired (moved away & -10 kicked out) Falcon Flight guest wingman @ OSH
180 hours or so in formation and cherished every minute.