The 180-degree Turn

[WhiskeyMike]

I have a fair amount of experience flying gliders (including 1000+ takeoffs/landings), and have had at least a dozen simulated rope breaks (initiated by sneaky CFI?s without warning) pulled on me. It?s part of the required training so it gets talked about and practiced quite a bit, but the protocol on this is universal (to my knowledge) to always turn INTO the wind. With that said, the direction of turn really depends on how much altitude margin (excess over the minimum required based on conditions) that you have. If you?re high enough you can turn anyway you want?even fly a normal pattern ground track. But if you have little altitude margin I believe that turning into the wind is safer. If you compare the risk management of turning into the wind and possibly overshooting the centerline when landing to the risk management of turning down wind and possibly not being able to make the runway I?d rather manage the former (which by the way, is really no big deal ? been there).

I would also like to comment on the seemingly common technique, when planning/practicing the 180 degree maneuver, to wait 3-4+ seconds AFTER simulated engine sputter/stoppage before beginning the turn. Please forgive, but this doesn?t make sense to me. Yes, I?ve heard the rationale that you may be surprised or confused in a real engine-out scenario and need this time to gather your wits and take appropriate action. I respectfully suggest that if this is the case there is trouble in paradise. In the best-case scenario, taking 3-4 seconds to figure this out if the fan goes quiet will materially limit your options and the likelihood of a successful outcome. In the worst case scenario?

Glider training teaches one to always assume that the rope will break or the tow plane will malfunction at low altitude. So for me, take off preparation in a powered aircraft ALWAYS includes an assumption that the engine will quit. Before every take off I make an assessment of wind and other relevant conditions, and a predetermination as to the safe minimum altitude and direction of turn that would be needed. Planning like this doesn?t take much time and quickly become second nature once you start doing it. Being prepared to act decisively in an emergency (close to the ground!), in addition to practicing the maneuver itself, just seems like a good idea?

[MarkW]

I had some smart instructors so my take-off plan is always knowing the wind direction, knowing which way to turn into the wind and the decision altitude for a turn back. At some airports the wind direction is less important than other available runways, taxiways or open fields.

[Low Pass]

A man's gotta know his limitations.

- Harry Callahan

[Dgamble]

Originally Posted by Low Pass

A man's gotta know his limitations.

- Harry Callahan

Or get married and have them constantly recited to him.

[kjlpdx]

I practiced these turns recently and found that the tighter, higher G turns seemed to work best at not burning off altitude. the best result was from my instructor's suggestion, to immediately pull back on the stick when any engine problems first occur. if I did that and then waited 5 secs before turning the results were much better, as much as 100'. so my suggestion is to learn to react first by gaining altitude first and then start analyzing what is going wrong. I also call out critical altitude during takeoff.

[rightrudder]

Originally Posted by Low Pass

A man's gotta know his limitations.

- Harry Callahan

You're thinking "did he torque six AN-3 hinge bolts or only five?" Now to tell you the truth I forgot myself in all this excitement.

kjlpdx, my first reaction with a sputtering engine/loss of power would be forward stick, to maintain airspeed. I guess it depends on the amount of power loss.

[az_gila]

Originally Posted by kjlpdx

I practiced these turns recently and found that the tighter, higher G turns seemed to work best at not burning off altitude. the best result was from my instructor's suggestion, to immediately pull back on the stick when any engine problems first occur. if I did that and then waited 5 secs before turning the results were much better, as much as 100'. so my suggestion is to learn to react first by gaining altitude first and then start analyzing what is going wrong. I also call out critical altitude during takeoff.

In gliders I was taught to use a 45 degree bank for the turn back. I also remember an AOPA safety video from a few decades back that came to the same conclusion.

[RVDan]

I am a glider instructor (not Will's) with well over 600 simulated rope breaks with students and Will learned well. The math and practice shows that a 45 degree banked turn gets you turned around with the least altitude lost.

Emergency plan before takeoff. Engine quits, establish glide speed while turning into the wind (unless obstacles are an issue), 45 deg bank. If you expect the emergency every time, the reaction delay is minimized but still a factor. If overrunning the runway is a possibility and it often is, you probably have sufficient altitude to reduce the bank angle, flaps down, slip etc to get down.

Sometimes the real challenge is when you have to much altitude, but not enough for a full pattern.

I have practiced this in my -6A at 400 ft as a hard minimum altitude for a turn. Never skid the turn or go below 1.3 Vso approach speed, your sink rate will go up and L/D down. Note that C/S prop will be different than fixed pitch.

[DougJ]

Originally Posted by Low Pass

A man's gotta know his limitations.

- Harry Callahan

Originally Posted by Dgamble

Or get married and have them constantly recited to him.

OK, that was to funny not to quote...

On Subject:

As flightlogic has demonstrated in his 9A getting the turn done safely to align with the runway is not the only issue, having some runway left to land on is a problem.

I have very little SE time, and I'm used to a departure brief in a ME airplane. When I first got my RV-6 I looked at this issue to give myself a baseline on which to build a brief/plan for self. (OK Self, if the engine fails on departure we're going to...) I quickly discovered that due to the RV-6's climb and turning performance; and depending on the wind and TOGW, I could get the airplane turned back in alignment with the runway and - not have enough runway available to safely land on.

I need to get back out and do this again since it's been quite awhile and I've not done it since. I have a plan for my home airport for straight ahead/90/180ish turns after a power loss on departure. The landing areas and altitudes are already picked out. When I arrive at an unfamiliar field I try look around the departure end before I land to give me an idea of what my options are.

You'll notice I mention no numbers in post, different airplanes, pilots and conditions will result in different numbers. There's no magic pill. Remaining in control is what will keep you alive, you've got to temper everything you do with that in mind. As was stated previously, if there is any doubt, there is no doubt, choose another option if available. Plan ahead, you've got to have a plan in place otherwise you'll find your all out of time, talent and ideas...

[kjlpdx]

if I am climbing at 80+mph and pull the throttle quickly to simulate power loss I can gain quite a bit of altitude immediately slowing to 60mph. no need for forward stick unless you climb out near stall speed. this, of course, raises the question of what is your turn around altitude and how confident are you to perform if close to that altitude? the day I practiced with the guy who taught me to fly, we couldn't do better any other way. yes, we needed forward stick to make the turn, but that initial altitude seemed impossible to regain with other procedures. if there are better methods, I'm happy to try them.