Is a simplified instrument panel at first, a good way to go?

[Saville]

Hi All,

I'm mulling over building an RV-8. There are tons of considerations (QB vs Standard, time vs money, etc).

One of them is the instrument panel. Eventually, I would like to make this an IFR-capable airplane. But I'm wondering if it is a bad idea to start with a very simple VFR, day/night panel. Then upgrade.

A simple panel gets me flying more quickly and a bit more cheaply. I'll need time to get used to the a/c and certainly won't be flying IFR for quite a while.

But how easy is it to remove a panel and install a new one?

How easy is it to add new wiring, cabling, air hoses, vacuum pumps etc to an already -built a/c?

Will I need a stronger alternator? Or maybe it's smart to start with one that can power IFR panels. What about the battery? Any differences there?

Assume all other equipment is either there or can be installed on the engine that exists.

Thanks!

[Sam Buchanan]

Originally Posted by Saville

Hi All,

I'm mulling over building an RV-8. There are tons of considerations (QB vs Standard, time vs money, etc).

One of them is the instrument panel. Eventually, I would like to make this an IFR-capable airplane. But I'm wondering if it is a bad idea to start with a very simple VFR, day/night panel. Then upgrade.

A simple panel gets me flying more quickly and a bit more cheaply. I'll need time to get used to the a/c and certainly won't be flying IFR for quite a while.

But how easy is it to remove a panel and install a new one?

After building the RV-8 re-doing a panel is definitely within your capabilities. There are some things you can do during initial build that will facilitate later updates.

How easy is it to add new wiring, cabling, air hoses, vacuum pumps etc to an already -built a/c?

Air hoses and vacuum pumps aren't installed in RVs any more. Digital is now the dominant technology.

Will I need a stronger alternator? Or maybe it's smart to start with one that can power IFR panels. What about the battery? Any differences there?

A 60 amp alternator and the recommended PC680 battery will be sufficient to power whatever IFR equipment you install later.

It is fun to "window shop" a panel but final decisions should be postponed until very late in your build. Panel technology is rapidly evolving and today's latest and greatest will be yesterday's tech when you get ready to build the panel. The RV-8 panel can be easily updated as avionics change.

To address your original answer--the EFIS systems currently available yeild a simple-looking panel and provide tremendous utility for the IFR pilot. The cost of building this capability into the initial build is not much more than a VFR-only panel. Build the panel you want the first time.

[pierre smith]

Gregg, Sam is spot on, plus digital stuff saves a pile of weight. Current draw is also minimal and these systems have proven themselves extremely reliable...no moving parts. Even my old legacy Dynons (8 years old) have never failed and I fly them IFR routinely.

Cross that bridge late in the build as Sam suggests.

Best,

[Ron RV8]

I would suggest building what you want from the start. It is MUCH easier to run wires, tubing etc before the top skins go on. If you went with say 2-7" dynons you could cut the panel and wire for the second then just plug it in later if $ were a major factor. Just put a cover on the hole in the meantime. Same with the ADAHRS... There are other redundancies such as dual alerenators, batteries etc that you will also need to consider.

I've now got 35 hrs on my -8, and it doesn't take that long to get used to it...

In any cass I suggest wiring your panel with enough extra wire to unbolt it and set it on the seat to work on, and installing the front baggage access mod which you can find by searching on this site... These will ease later work, but it's still a PITA compared to during construction...

If you cost it out I think you would find that the incremental cost of your IFR panel would be quite modest...

Have fun with your project...

[FORANE]

I know an avionics installer who owns an 8. He has a skyview, 696, GTN650, and a few other items in the panel. Aside from a few screws, the entire panel is removable by just unplugging 3 wire connectors.

I am not a builder but have bought and added the IFR panel stuff on a few occasions. If I were building on a budget, I would try to plan ahead and run the cables and such you might need later. An example might be to install a pitot mast and a wire to it during the build even if you do not install a heated pitot. Another example might be to run a wiring harness for autopilot servos.

[SHIPCHIEF]

I say follow the plans, and build light.
Get that plane done. I spent too much time on the panel and the custom engine installation. I could have flown the plane YEARS sooner.
And it's all about flying the plane.
It is not hard to pull in new wires along the right side of the plane, where you can reach down thru the forward baggage door and pull thru from the switch panel to the firewall. It's tougher on the left side where the control cables and fuel lines go, but that's not avionics.
The panel is removable, so you can sit in the cockpit and pull wires from the switch panel to the instrument panel which you hang on something while you reach in behind. Make sure your wires are long enough to leave a 'Service Loop' so you can remove the panel enough to work behind it without unplugging anything.
Sometimes you have to remove the pilot's seat, back & control stick,then lay on a back board to work under the panel. That's the worst, but it's doable and not too bad.
I suppose the average RV gets one or two panel rebuilds in their lives. The RV-4 is probably the easiest with the tip over canopy and removable skin over the instrument panel. It is so easy to stand beside the airframe and simply reach in behind the panel.

[SMO]

My Rocket will take flight for the first time in the next week or two. I designed and built my panel/wiring just over 4 years ago. Today most of what I have installed is no longer being produced or has upgraded hardware available - VP200 - out of production, Trutrak EFIS/AP - out of production, Garmin GNS430W - out of production, Garmin 696 - superseded by the 796, camera system - mine is internally embedded, would use Go Pro or Garmin's if doing this today. The only positive thing about this is that the products are by reliable vendors who still provide support. I also have an Garmin SL30, Garmin GTX330, Trutrak ADI, and a PMA8000B audio panel.

In hindsight I wish I had done as you suggest - just created a simple VFR panel and flown the plane with that. I would install an inexpensive EFIS, a single radio, and a transponder.

I can assure you the panel I would install today for IFR purposes would be quite different than what I currently have.

With respect to wiring, most of the additional wire required is behind the panel, with the exception of the wiring for the autopilot servos.

[AaronG]

If you go this route, I would suggest you at least configure the airplane to minimize work later. Once you start flying, you will not want to stop, and some items are much easier to do when you are still building. A couple of items I would do now:

- heated pitot
- nav lights and strobes
- alternate air for static system
- electrical system that supports ifr (see aeroelectric connection for details) to include:

- e-bus with redundancy for single point failures
- second battery
- wiring for backup alternator if you want one eventually
- 60 amp alternator will be adequate
- space on your bus bars, etc, to add extra circuits

Finally, I would add plugs between the panel and airframe, so you can easily remove the panel for the upgrade.

Aaron

[Sig600]

If/when I build another RV it will be as light and simple as possible. (Unless its an RV-10, then everything I'm about to type doesn't apply.)

I'm not a fan of single engine hard IFR flying, and while the RV is a wonderful airplane it's not a great IFR platform. Getting above and down through a layer? Sure. But thats about all I'd want.

For an 8 I would go with a dual screen 7" skyview, transponder. You can stack them, run PFD on top and Engine/MAP 50/50 on the bottom. Two radios, one with an ILS reciever and that's it. Personally I think the GTN650 is way over kill for this airplane, and I have one. You could even do one radio and add the second later. That's it. Light and simple.

Building the airplane light and economical makes for a much more fun airplane. Put your money into a powerful solid engine, and a good prop. The lighter these airplanes are, they get exponentially more fun. I say this having a 1200 # RV-8. Some day, years from now, when it's time to upgrade I'll probably rip out half of what is in mine and take it down to what I described. You're not going to want to fly serious IFR in an RV-8.

[SHIPCHIEF]

You should try to get a flight in an RV-4 AND an RV-8.
My wife has a -4, I have an -8. I love my -8, but the -4 is pure delight to fly.
I built my -8 light, so I get the roomier cockpit, and other -8 strong points, but retain as much of the joy as possible.
I will upgrade the avionics, I started with steam gauges, but ditched the vacuum system early in the build, so Dynon D-10a replaces the AI and DG, the other big gauges remain in the panel.
A Skyview system with ADSB & radios would save weight and increase resources. Althought some of the weight reduction occurs in the wallet.
I also went on a diet and lost 25 pounds. Anything to increase the rate of climb!