VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics


Go Back   VAF Forums > RV Firewall Forward Section > Traditional Aircraft Engines
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #31  
Old 05-13-2014, 06:06 PM
bruceg bruceg is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: AL
Posts: 69
Default RPM Surges

What's causing those RPM surges that follow the stumble? Are they related to the fluctuating fuel flow?
__________________
Bruce G.
RV-8
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 05-13-2014, 08:49 PM
mikeyj350's Avatar
mikeyj350 mikeyj350 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA / USA
Posts: 159
Default

Have you tried intentionally cutting your engine while circling over an airport to see what the graphs look like for comparison? Just briefly cut your mags, and then briefly cut mixture (and/or maybe fuel selector) to see if either produces a similar plot?

My money is on a fuel issue due to the rising carb temp, to me that says it isn't vaporizing fuel during that time period. My guess is if you try the diagnosis above, your carb temps won't rise when you cut the mags... Just be ready for a BOOM when you light it back up

Good luck, and above all be safe while testing!
__________________
Mike Jimenez & Sarah Hammonds
EAA Chapter 33 Prez & Soc Chair
Marion, IA USA

RV-10 In progress! (N165MJ reserved)
-Emp & Wings complete
-Panel wired up, working on Fuse & Finish
-Blog horribly outdated (sorry)
-Too many distractions, we will finish the plane someday!!!

http://mikeandsarahrv10.blogspot.com/
http://www.eaa33.org/
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 05-13-2014, 09:22 PM
AlexPeterson's Avatar
AlexPeterson AlexPeterson is online now
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Maple Grove, MN
Posts: 2,329
Default

Galin, sorry you are fighting this strange problem!

Question - generally where is your mixture set during these events? I.e., peak, ROP, LOP?

I'm wondering if some play in the mixture control cable could be the culprit. The hysteresis inherent to cables running through curved sheaths means that one can always move the lever (on the carb) back and forth some while the red knob is locked at the panel. If you approach leaning from the rich side, the lever could move additionally lean at some point after you've locked the knob (perhaps vibration induced). If instead, after you've leaned, you were to move the knob slightly rich, the lever on the carb can not then subsequently move additionally towards the lean side (indeed, it could only move towards the rich side).

Sorry this is not easy to follow (try writing it!), but it might be worth seeing how much play the mixture lever has next time you have the cowl off. Put the mixture knob at about the cruise position, and go around and move the lever on the carb back and forth.
__________________
Alex Peterson
RV6A N66AP 1700+ hours
KADC, Wadena, MN
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 05-14-2014, 05:20 AM
mahlon_r mahlon_r is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,024
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GalinHdz View Post
Its a 10-3878 and was overhauled by Kelly Aerospace Power Systems on Jan 02, 2014. The paperwork says:

Overhauled in accordance with Precision Airmotive Corporation FSM-OH2 dated March 30, 1993. Complied with AVCO SB 366 Rev A, AVCO SB 330B, MS SB 297A, MS SB A1-76, MS SB A1-84A, MS SB A2-67, MS SB A1-69, A69-24-3, AD69-22-3, AD72-6-5, AD89-4-2.

We installed it just 2hrs ago.

The M kit stops the behavior you are experiencing in that carb P/N. It involves installing a kit P/N A666-660 which helps vaporize and distribute the fuel from the carb better. It will fix the stumble issue, make the engine richer at full rich setting and generally improve the way it runs. Although there is the possibility of another unrelated cause, I am 90% sure that installing the kit will fix your problem. Your engine is exhibiting the classic symptoms of needing it.
Good Luck,
Mahlon
__________________
"The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided responsibly and at your own risk."
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 05-14-2014, 10:12 AM
az_gila's Avatar
az_gila az_gila is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
Posts: 10,011
Smile

Great info from Mahlon -

Page 27 here -

http://hhh.gavilan.edu/hspenner/Main...years69-59.pdf

Since the SB M mod is for Mooneys and Cherokees only, it seems reasonable that the carb. overhaul folks didn't perform it.
__________________
Gil Alexander
EAA Technical Counselor, Airframe Mechanic
Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
RV-6A N61GX - finally flying
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 05-14-2014, 06:29 PM
GalinHdz's Avatar
GalinHdz GalinHdz is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: KSGJ / TJBQ
Posts: 2,034
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahlon_r View Post
The M kit stops the behavior you are experiencing in that carb P/N. It involves installing a kit P/N A666-660 which helps vaporize and distribute the fuel from the carb better. It will fix the stumble issue, make the engine richer at full rich setting and generally improve the way it runs. Although there is the possibility of another unrelated cause, I am 90% sure that installing the kit will fix your problem. Your engine is exhibiting the classic symptoms of needing it.
Good Luck,
Mahlon
I just read the SB so I will check to see if the "M" is stamped on the carb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by az_gila View Post
Great info from Mahlon -

Page 27 here -

http://hhh.gavilan.edu/hspenner/Main...years69-59.pdf

Since the SB M mod is for Mooneys and Cherokees only, it seems reasonable that the carb. overhaul folks didn't perform it.
THANKS!


Last edited by GalinHdz : 05-14-2014 at 06:45 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 05-19-2014, 02:39 PM
Michael Henning Michael Henning is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Nashua, NH
Posts: 536
Default

Any resolution to your problem?
__________________
Mike
RV-4 #2750
N654ML
IO-360
WW150C Prop
1018 lbs
Flying
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 05-19-2014, 05:17 PM
GalinHdz's Avatar
GalinHdz GalinHdz is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: KSGJ / TJBQ
Posts: 2,034
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Henning View Post
Any resolution to your problem?
Not yet but after my last test flight I got some new information and data pointing to a situation that explains everything. However, I don't want to claim victory until I am 1000% sure. Once we get the "fix" completely tested (hopefully by next weekend) I will post the results.


Last edited by GalinHdz : 06-09-2014 at 04:20 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 06-09-2014, 03:31 PM
GalinHdz's Avatar
GalinHdz GalinHdz is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: KSGJ / TJBQ
Posts: 2,034
Default EUREKA!

After months of fighting it looks like we got the problem fixed. Just like most similar problems, this one is actually quite simple and explains other issues I thought were unrelated.

After changing the ignition switch to eliminate the possibility of an internal ignition P lead short I went on a test flight. Doubting this was the problem, I decided that if the problem continued I would do several other in flight tests. I coordinated with the tower to stay over the approach end of the runway during the flight.

With all the ground tests completed and passed, I took off and climbed without issue to 1,500ft just as the tower had cleared me. A few minutes after reaching 1,500ft the engine started to run rough again. Knowing I was within easy gliding distance of the runway I got up the guts to do the “in-flight” single magneto check. I switched to left mag only and, as I expected, there was absolutely no change in the engine performance. It continued to run a bit rough. When I switched to right mag only, complete and absolute silence. THE ENGINE HAD QUIT!

With “pucker factor” at a maximum, I switched to both magnetos and the engine came back to life but still running a bit rough. With this new information I decided to land and as I descended, the engine started running smooth as silk again. Once on the ground I tried everything I could to reproduce the problem with no avail. The engine continued to run smooth. But now I know without a doubt I had a magneto problem.

I called Brad (E-Mags) who has been working with me on this problem from day one, and told him what happened on this flight. With this information he speculated both magnetos have separate problems, one problem masking the other. My left magneto has a problem causing it to run slightly rough. The right magneto compensates when it is working correctly and covers the problem. When the right magneto cuts off for that brief time frame, then the left magneto’s problem manifests itself until the right magneto comes back on line and the engine runs smooth again. I downloaded the data from my EMS and we could see it happening in perfect harmony with the symptoms. Brad told me to ship him both magnetos (making sure I identified which was which) and he would abuse them in his shop to figure out if this is what is actually happening.

In addition to explaining why the engine ran a bit rough only once in a while it explained two other situations which, until then, I thought were completely unrelated to the intermittent stumbling issue. 20/20 hindsight.

About a week after installing the magnetos (Oct 2013) I was going to take a short local flight when, while doing the engine run up, the RPM indications on my DYNON SkyView EMS dropped to zero even though the engine continued to run smoothly. No matter what I did the RPMs stayed at zero with the engine still running. I aborted the flight and checked the wiring. Finding nothing wrong I called DYNON and we realized I had configured the computer to read only from the right magneto. Since I had not installed the 33K resistor on the magneto tach sensor line we figured the computer had disconnected the signal which explained why I had no RPM indication even though the engine was still running smooth. We configured the computer to read from both magneto’s and have not had the problem since. With 20/20 hindsight this might have been when the right magneto computer board started having its intermittent problem but the left magneto, which was operating fine back then, compensated and covered the problem. BTW: With the Skyview EMS you do not install a 33K resistor with the E-Mags only the 5.1v diode on the tach line.

Then, back in January 2014, I was doing an engine run up prior to a flight when I felt the engine running different. I couldn’t pinpoint why, but it just felt different to me. But no matter what I did during the run up everything looked fine so I continued and had an uneventful flight. A few flights after this the intermittent roughness during cruise flight started. I am speculating that this is when the left magneto started acting up and I have been chasing two ghosts ever since. Again, hindsight is 20/20.

Brad received the mags but didn’t find any “smoking gun” when he tested them. However, since the right mag had stopped sending a tach signal before and had stopped operating in flight he decided to change the PC board in it. He also sent me a new wire harness for the left mag and told me to replace the spark plugs with new ones. The only thing Brad charged me for all of this work was shipping the mags back to me.

We installed the magnetos, the new wiring harness and replaced all the spark plugs on Saturday. I did multiple ground tests and everything passed with flying colors. By the time we had everything closed back up it was night so I decided to do the flight test on Monday.

For testing I made the flight with the left magneto on ship power but the right magneto on internal power only. This insured that if there were something wrong with my electrical system at least one magneto would not be affected. I climbed to 1,700ft and stayed over the approach end of the runway for 45 minutes. Everything went perfectly smooth. Not one hiccup, stumble or any other abnormality. I was one very happy camper when I landed.

Being the belt and suspenders kind of guy, I am still a bit apprehensive that the problem is fixed but it really looks like we got it. The next few flights will just be just hops around the pattern until I have flown about 5hrs without a stumble of any kind. Only then will I start going further away as I get more confident this has completely eliminated the problem.

I want to thank everyone here that has helped during these baffling times especially Bill (N941WR), Kahuna and Brad at E-Mags. Brad and I talked multiple times during the ordeal and he never tried to push the blame somewhere else just kept a logical troubleshooting sequence until he nailed the problem. His customer support is superb and I am glad I went with his magnetos.


Last edited by GalinHdz : 06-09-2014 at 04:28 PM. Reason: Typo
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 06-09-2014, 06:30 PM
GalinHdz's Avatar
GalinHdz GalinHdz is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: KSGJ / TJBQ
Posts: 2,034
Default

I also want to thank Tom (g_zero) for letting me vent frustrations during our multiple hangar sessions.


Last edited by GalinHdz : 06-09-2014 at 06:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:41 PM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.