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  #31  
Old 05-11-2014, 01:09 AM
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Flyingdreamz Flyingdreamz is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjlpdx View Post
I have seen videos of kids sending their drones up thru the clouds just to see what it looks like above [2500' agl]. this is no different than the 14 year old with a laser, "hey, let's go point them at landing airliners and see what happens". I'd like to see software limits of 200' agl mandated to help enforce regulations.
UAVs will operate later up in the flight levels, I also don't see software limits really being enforceable.(the limited would be 400 AGL if you could do it)



Quote:
Originally Posted by RV7A Flyer View Post
I think this is what concerns many of us. Whether autonomous or remotely controlled, *how* are they going to abide by the "see and avoid" rule? And if they fail in that regard, and an accident results, whose fault is it going to be? The software architect who designed the autonomous system's "see and avoid" behavior, or the pilot of the 172 who hit the UAV?
UAVs would operate under a different system. Manned Aircraft would ALWAYS have priority and right-of-way. The DSA, or Detect, Sense, and Avoid system would allow a UAS to use Radar and ADS-B to find you in your RV or 172 and avoid you.


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Originally Posted by RV7A Flyer View Post
Clearly, safety is a primary concern for *most* of the stakeholders (including pilots, UAV pilots, controllers, etc.). I'm not so sure about some entities, though, such as local/state LE agencies (I have what I think is a healthy distrust of LE in some respects) who may not have the overall system experience/knowledge that pilots, controllers, UAV designers/engineers/pilots do.

Sooner or later, there will be a conflict between a UAV and a GA pilot (with any luck, it won't cause an accident), and my concern is that the GA pilot will get hit with an enforcement action for "failure to see and avoid" while the UAV pilot (being, in all likelihood, a local, state or federal LE officer or employee) will not be held responsible.

Color me skeptical...
http://droneu.org/the-drone-census
That is where pretty much every legal UAV is currently in the US. There are very few law enforcement agencies still on the map because its really not effective this early in the game. Getting a COA approved can take up to 120 days making reacting to any situation near impossible.

Also as I said before, you CANNOT operate a UAS in the national airspace system with out a COA, and at least an instrument rating (after 2015). Currently I know of only a few LEs that have used there privileges to fly UAVs and they have not been used in any law enforcement activities as the COA is only to allow for flight testing of UAVs.

The PIC of the UAS will be at fault for any conflict that ever arises from a manned v. unmanned situation. When I fly any UAV/UAS, we normally have 2 to 4 spotters, we issue at least 2 notams (because EZM is on the boarder between JAX and ATL), we call up the airspace controller above the site on frequency to lets them know we are flying, we let airports know on the CTAF/Tower and we call up on guard as well(for off airport testing). That way when I start flying, we have effectively cleared the airspace.
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  #32  
Old 05-11-2014, 01:46 AM
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RV7A Flyer RV7A Flyer is offline
 
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http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/...o-help-police/

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/...la-drone_x.htm

"A spokesperson with the LAPD said the department does not have a policy on drone use. However, the Los Angeles Times reported in 2012 that the LAPD and 81 other agencies had filed for licenses to operate drones. Two of those agencies were the Department of Homeland Security?s Science and Technology Division and the department?s Bureau of Border and Customs Protection. "

http://pasadenaweekly.com/cms/story/...the_sky/12400/

This is not the proper forum to talk about whether such use is proper or any privacy aspects or constitutional issues related to their use, and I'm not making such an argument.

I suspect that what you're doing is something different than what all of these other agencies are doing, by and large, but rest assured that many LE agencies *are* looking at, planning for (and in some cases, already using) UAVs for surveillance and other purposes.

My concern here is safety of flight. It's not reasonable to think that every time Podunk City PD wants to put up a "drone" they "clear the airspace" of all other aircraft, and that can lead to some very serious issues. How the FAA intends to manage this, while not crippling GA every time the sheriff wants to fly his latest toy, remains to be seen.

But don't think for a minute that this technology will not be high on the list of every LE agency in the country to acquire and use...

LA Sheriffs have already used them, apparently, by the way.
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  #33  
Old 05-11-2014, 03:42 AM
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plehrke plehrke is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Flyingdreamz View Post
We have the tower restrict access to the delta airspace until we can recover the aircraft (in most cases it is the twin-jet PTERA). Once we vacate the runway, the tower will then will allow the traffic outside the delta back in. (wait is about 5-10 minutes)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyingdreamz View Post
That way when I start flying, we have effectively cleared the airspace.
Great, We will have a pop-up NOTAM or TFR every time the local sheriff wants to get some UAS time and I have to spend my gas money to loiter until he is done with his flight.

I am not so concerned about the collision part because I know the FAA will make the rules restricted enough to maximize safety. The way they will do that is restrict general aviation in favor of COMMERCIAL UAS activities since they will have more political clout then us GA pilots. Heck the one guy that the FAA went after for violating the rules now has a whole bunch of politically connected friends defending him using Freedom of the Press terminology.

This is all going to be about additional restricts/equipment required for GA aviation.
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Last edited by plehrke : 05-11-2014 at 04:01 AM.
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  #34  
Old 05-11-2014, 06:50 AM
sailvi767 sailvi767 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy_RR View Post
I like to compare the risk to that of bird-strike and wonder (out loud) whether 10,000 new drones, most of them not more than a few pounds, represent a significant proportion of airborne collision risk compared with the tens, probably hundreds of million birds flying (in flocks) at similar altitudes and speeds and also oblivious to the class of airspace they are using...
Birds are actually pretty good at seeing and avoiding aircraft. I also think a 5lb bird would do less damage to a aircraft then a drone.

George
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  #35  
Old 05-11-2014, 08:03 AM
wrongway john wrongway john is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyingdreamz View Post
I deal with Unmanned Aerial Systems almost every day. In fact I may be one of the very few people that have been able to log UAS time legally when operating a UAV under a certificate of authorization. With that said, what about to say is my opinion and does not represent MGSC, the FAA, NASA, or the state of Georgia.

First let?s get the terminology right.
- A drone is something that the air force uses for target practice, they tend to blow up and where they blow does not seem to be too much of the concern of the DOD. (On a Florida highway, for example).
- A RC airplane is one that is a remotely controlled airplane, that is piloted line of sight and under 400 AGL for recreation.
- A UAS or Unmanned Aerial/Autonomous System, is one that is operated for commercial or research purposes that must be operated under a COA or Certificate of Authorization.
Maybe some in the AF will use that first example for a drone, but seems like drones are pretty much synonymous with UAV's and RPA's and the media uses it as such these days. In the brief time I looked at some of the on-line dictionaries for drone, none used that first example as a definition for it.
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  #36  
Old 05-11-2014, 08:59 AM
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Buggsy2 Buggsy2 is offline
 
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Wow, lots of posts that I haven't read, nor the FAA info. But lack of facts doesn't stop an opinion!

As long as UAVs operate under 500 feet, I don't much care. I quit flying low decades ago, there are too many fixed hazards anyway: cell towers, unmarked/poorly marked cables, you-name-it. I'm below 500 feet on takeoff and landing, and I assume drones, if they operate from airports, will be brightly painted with flashing strobes. We have to watch out for No-Radio piloted aircraft now, so I just don't see much change for pilots.
Let me know if I'm wrong
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  #37  
Old 05-11-2014, 09:05 AM
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Buggsy2 Buggsy2 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by sailvi767 View Post
Birds are actually pretty good at seeing and avoiding aircraft. I also think a 5lb bird would do less damage to a aircraft then a drone.
Not sure about this. A local pilot was killed summer 2013 when he hit a bird at below 1000 feet AGL; apparently it hit the leading edge of his wood wing structure, causing a complete failure of the wing and subsequent fatal crash.

I knew an RV-6A pilot some years ago that suffered a huge dent in his leading edge striking a bird (don't know his altitude).

Another RV-7 pilot I know totaled his aircraft on takeoff striking a bird and losing control...luckily surviving to build another one.

I've always heard the larger birds don't avoid aircraft. Either the aircraft are too fast, or the larger birds don't have natural predators so don't have an instinct to avoid.
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  #38  
Old 05-11-2014, 09:47 AM
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Flyingdreamz Flyingdreamz is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plehrke View Post
Great, We will have a pop-up NOTAM or TFR every time the local sheriff wants to get some UAS time and I have to spend my gas money to loiter until he is done with his flight.

I am not so concerned about the collision part because I know the FAA will make the rules restricted enough to maximize safety. The way they will do that is restrict general aviation in favor of COMMERCIAL UAS activities since they will have more political clout then us GA pilots. Heck the one guy that the FAA went after for violating the rules now has a whole bunch of politically connected friends defending him using Freedom of the Press terminology.

This is all going to be about additional restricts/equipment required for GA aviation.
Currently there are no standard or rules to allow for UAVs to operate in the same airspace together so the best way so far has been to keep them away from each other. I know when ever a system is in place for SDA then there wont be a separation. We also can not use a TFR for UAVs, we can only make a notam for notice, and the only reason why the college restricts access to class Delta is because when we fly at the EZM airport we are flying a UAV about half the size of an RV, that is about the same speed rang as one.
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Middle Georgia State College Student Built RV-12 Project

Private Pilot ASEL with Instrument
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  #39  
Old 05-11-2014, 10:13 AM
Danny7 Danny7 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjlpdx View Post
I have seen videos of kids sending their drones up thru the clouds just to see what it looks like above [2500' agl]. this is no different than the 14 year old with a laser, "hey, let's go point them at landing airliners and see what happens". I'd like to see software limits of 200' agl mandated to help enforce regulations.
people are making the software themselves, there is no realistic way to enforce a software limit.
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  #40  
Old 05-11-2014, 02:15 PM
Smilin' Jack Smilin' Jack is offline
 
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Default Reported yesterday

Here is more stuff on drones, they are talking the small drones but what about the ones bigger than our aircraft!!!!

A U.S. Airways regional jet came dangerously close to a potentially "catastrophic" midair collision with a remote-controlled drone over the Florida Panhandle, news reports said Friday.

A pilot reported the March 22 incident to the Federal Aviation Administration, James Williams, chief of the agency’s unmanned aircraft office, said in a speech at the Small Unmanned Systems Business Exposition in San Francisco. The speech was posted to YouTube.com, and reported by The Wall Street Journal.

According to The Journal, U.S. Airways Flight 4650 from Charlotte, N.C., a 50-seat jet, was approaching the Tallahassee airport, flying at an altitude of 2,300 feet, when it passed a drone described by the pilot "as a camouflaged F-4 fixed-wing aircraft that was quite small."

"The airline pilot said that he thought the [drone] was so close to his jet that he was sure that he had collided with it," said Jim Williams, head of the unmanned-aircraft office at the FAA, The Journal reported.

Inspection of the airliner after landing found no damage — but officials said a collision with a drone could be as frightening, and as potentially "catastrophic," as a jet flying into a flock of birds, USA Today reports.

"The risk for a small [drone] to be ingested into a passenger airline engine is very real," Williams told The Journal.

Geese that flew into the engines of a U.S. Airways plane out of LaGuardia Airport in 2009 forced the jet into the icy Hudson River in a landing by now-retired pilot Chesley Sullenberger nicknamed the Miracle on the Hudson.

According to FAA regulations, drone operators are required to get an experimental airworthiness certificate that precludes the operator from flying at certain times and in certain areas, Business Insider reports.

The government has also limited the operation of model airplanes to altitudes of less than 400 feet and away from airports and all air traffic.

The FAA has said it plans to propose rules by the end of the year governing civilian drones weighing less than 55 pounds, which have grown in popularity as prices fall and the crafts become more widely available.

American Airlines, the parent of U.S. Airways, is investigating, spokesman Matt Miller told USA Today.

"The safety of our passengers and crew is our top priority," Miller said. "Any information will be shared with the FAA as part of our normal procedures, and we will not comment on any matter that may be under investigation."

The Journal reported the incident appears to be the first case of a big U.S. airliner nearly colliding with an airborne drone, although there have been other occasions of aircraft pilots seeing drones in flight.

In March 2013, an Alitalia aircraft approaching John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York observed a drone within 200 feet, according to the Federal Bureau of Investigation. The FBI Friday told The Journal it’s still investigating.

And the Australian Broadcasting Corporation reported last month that a rescue helicopter service evaded a drone flying too close.

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau is investigating the incident, which happened at around a thousand feet as the chopper returned to its Newcastle base. The agency said the crew was forced to take evasive action to avoid a collision as the drone tracked toward them.
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