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01-30-2014, 09:07 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Dallas/Ft Worth, TX
Posts: 5,687
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike S
Walt, thanks for the info-----------have you ever actually installed or used any of these??
How well do they integrate into an existing aircraft???
What/which one do I need to become compliant with 2020 requirements??
I am still baffled by their advertising claim of "Everything you need in one box", and then having more that a single box????? Logic would dictate that 3 of the boxes do not have "Everything" I need.
  
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Mike,
The FDL-978 XVR Transceiver (ADS-B In/Out) with built in certified GPS ($5495) will have everything you need in one box. If you have a certifed GPS like a 430/650 then you could go with the FDL-978-TX Transmitter ADS-B Out only for $3305.
Freeflight has not released the AML STC that will cover installation in the certified world yet but it should be soon, they will definately be one of the big players in the ADS-B retrofit game.
__________________
Walt Aronow, DFW, TX (52F)
EXP Aircraft Services LLC
Specializing in RV Condition Inspections, Maintenance, Avionics Upgrades
Dynamic Prop Balancing, Pitot-Static Altmeter/Transponder Certification
FAA Certified Repair Station, AP/IA/FCC GROL, EAA Technical Counselor
Authorized Garmin G3X Dealer/Installer
RV7A built 2004, 1700+ hrs, New Titan IO-370, Bendix Mags
Website: ExpAircraft.com, Email: walt@expaircraft.com, Cell: 972-746-5154
Last edited by Walt : 01-30-2014 at 09:15 PM.
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01-30-2014, 09:14 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Dallas/Ft Worth, TX
Posts: 5,687
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner
It has nothing to do with safety. It's all about saving the FAA money. They get to decommision their expensive to maintain radars, and replace them with cheap receivers listening to ADSB out signals. And who gets to pay for this? Oh yea, the aircraft owners!
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Back when TCAS was an emerging technology we in the airline said the same thing, it was costing the airlines millions to install and the pilots saw it as useless junk they would never use, and most certainly would not take commands from it to avoid traffic.... ask them now what they think of it.
__________________
Walt Aronow, DFW, TX (52F)
EXP Aircraft Services LLC
Specializing in RV Condition Inspections, Maintenance, Avionics Upgrades
Dynamic Prop Balancing, Pitot-Static Altmeter/Transponder Certification
FAA Certified Repair Station, AP/IA/FCC GROL, EAA Technical Counselor
Authorized Garmin G3X Dealer/Installer
RV7A built 2004, 1700+ hrs, New Titan IO-370, Bendix Mags
Website: ExpAircraft.com, Email: walt@expaircraft.com, Cell: 972-746-5154
Last edited by Walt : 01-31-2014 at 04:48 AM.
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01-30-2014, 09:44 PM
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VAF Moderator / Line Boy
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dayton, NV
Posts: 12,256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt
Back when TCAS was an emerging technology we in the airline said the same thing, it was costing the airlines millions to install and the pilots saw it as useless junk they would never use, and most certainly would not take commands from it to avoid traffic.... ask them now what they think of it now.
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Yes, but Walt the pilots didn't have to pay for TCAS!! Totally different dynamic here....
__________________
Paul F. Dye
Editor at Large - KITPLANES Magazine
RV-8 - N188PD - "Valkyrie"
RV-6 (By Marriage) - N164MS - "Mikey"
RV-3B - N13PL - "Tsamsiyu"
A&P, EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor
Dayton Valley Airpark (A34)
http://Ironflight.com
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01-30-2014, 09:45 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 6,797
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Walt, I think it remains to be seen if there are fewer mid-airs due to adsb-in; or more collisions, cfit, loss of control, etc, as pilots spend more time heads down.
And remember adsb in is optional, not everyone will have it. The display needed in Normally certified aircraft will be expensive.
And remember a few years ago, in a tough budget year, the FAA was threatening to not support ADSB in.
ADSB in is just the carrot, to make the stick (ADSB out) more palitable to those who are being forced to pay for it.
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01-30-2014, 09:52 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Keller, TX
Posts: 408
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The Ranger 978 XVR which is a single box with ADS-B in and out with internal GPS with my Garmin 327 transponder is being installed on my RV-10. I also am adding the TC-978 control head and a very small box (a little larger than the old match boxes) which will give me Bluetooth to enable display on my iPad as well as my GRT EFIS. FreeFlight has a free App for the iPad and I think they are ready to release an app for the Android systems.
To have Fully compliant ADS-B in/out system I only needed the one box, a second stick and ball antenna and the GPS antenna. Total system weight will be between 1.5 to 2 pounds.
It was supposed to be installed this week but has been delayed for a couple of weeks to finalize the wiring harness and the under cowl GPS antenna mount.
I plan on taking a lot of pictures of the install and post them here as well as providing a PIREP. I am flying to the Bahamas during Spring Break and look forward to seeing how it works from Texas to Marsh Harbour.
Walt, I will let you know when the system is being installed so you can come over to my hanger and see it and ask any questions about the system.
In the interest of full disclosure, I used to work with the VP of engineering, John DeBusk. He is giving me one of the first boxes off the production line and having his folks install it. In exchange he wants my feedback on it. I will also take some of their engineers up to see how the system operates while flying. They have operating systems in the lab but of course their ADS-B system installed on the roof of their lab near DFW gives them a limited view and does not move.
TJ
__________________
RV-10 N331JH 3rd owner (First flew in 2005, #15 flying)
Northwest Regional 52F
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01-30-2014, 10:32 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Woodinville, WA
Posts: 1,499
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Remember that you still need a transponder. So while this gets you your ADS-B out, it doesn't satisfy the transponder requirement.
So, for $3,600 you can either install this box, cut another hole in your panel, and keep your current Mode-C transponder (assuming it's a modern digital transponder that is compatible.)
Or, with basically any brand of experimental EFIS today, you can buy a $2,200 fully certified Mode-S transponder, and a sub-$1,000 ADS-B IN box. That's $400+ less, and you can sell your old transponder to someone in Canada for $1,200. Plus, no cutting new holes in your panel and adding circuit breakers to your panel.
In both cases you will eventually need a TSO'd GPS, but why buy that today? You can get all the benefits of the system up until 2020 with a non-certified GPS, and odds are good that a TSO'd GPS will be less than $1,800 within the next 6 years.
This is actually a really good deal for our certified friends, since a TSO'd GPS for $1,800 is a smokin' deal in 2014, and with install costs and other issues, this may be cheaper than replacing the transponder in a plane.
Obviously we're biased over here at Dynon, but that won't stop us from offering our opinion  Freeflight makes some great gear, but at these prices, you are paying for the STC that you don't need in an experimental. The experimental EFIS companies have been offering simpler and more affordable ADS-B IN and OUT for years already.
--Ian Jordan
Dynon Avionics
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01-30-2014, 11:19 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 6,797
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Ian has some good points.
UAT was supposed to be the low cost option for GA; but the FAA couldn't resist piling on TSO requirement after requirement, until the cost has spiralled out of control. I saw an exec from an aerospace company said he could build UAT boxes from cell phone parts for $150 each; but they would not meet TSO requirements. Something about 'parts traceability'.
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01-31-2014, 04:54 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Dallas/Ft Worth, TX
Posts: 5,687
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Agree with Ian, these boxes are aimed squarly at the certified retrofit market and for many in this catagory this will be a less expensive option if they already have a good transponder installed.
__________________
Walt Aronow, DFW, TX (52F)
EXP Aircraft Services LLC
Specializing in RV Condition Inspections, Maintenance, Avionics Upgrades
Dynamic Prop Balancing, Pitot-Static Altmeter/Transponder Certification
FAA Certified Repair Station, AP/IA/FCC GROL, EAA Technical Counselor
Authorized Garmin G3X Dealer/Installer
RV7A built 2004, 1700+ hrs, New Titan IO-370, Bendix Mags
Website: ExpAircraft.com, Email: walt@expaircraft.com, Cell: 972-746-5154
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01-31-2014, 05:31 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Keller, TX
Posts: 408
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Ian,
The FreeFlight GPS is TSO'd. Also you do not need to cut another hole in the panel, when you set the code with your transponder it is picked up by the freeflight system. I opted to put the control head in my panel but it is not required.
On a side note, the GPS signal is output from the FreeFlight box. I am using it as a second GPS source in my EFIS. I had also heard that some companies are seeing if this TSO'd WAAS GPS source can be used for IFR, when used by an EFIS. If this happens it would save the $7500 plus for a used 420W or 430W. It makes sense to me since the GPS source is a "vetted" one by the FAA. Why can't this source be used on a GRT, DYNON, etc EFIS with up to date IFR charts and approach plates downloaded in the EFIS?
Always trades whatever way you go.
TJ
__________________
RV-10 N331JH 3rd owner (First flew in 2005, #15 flying)
Northwest Regional 52F
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01-31-2014, 06:03 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 2,692
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying again!
On a side note, the GPS signal is output from the FreeFlight box. I am using it as a second GPS source in my EFIS. I had also heard that some companies are seeing if this TSO'd WAAS GPS source can be used for IFR, when used by an EFIS.
TJ
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I find the outlook for that to be poor since it would require the addition of strict database management in the EFIS just as the databases are managed in the TSO'd navigation systems (Garmin et al). Maybe a Jep supported non-editable database for our Efises? (Efii??  )
Given that, I am still planning to use the TSO'd GPS output for from my certified Navworx box as second GPS source. Its too tempting to not install the one wire needed to use it.
Navworx has the ADS600-BG boxes and certs but not STCs as of last conversation. They are cheaper by A LOT but they have to exist in the marketplace (meaning easily and quickly available) for that to be a reality. I have my fingers crossed that they will make it through and become a strong player in the ADSB market.
__________________
Bill Pendergrass
ME/AE '82
RV-7A: Flying since April 15, 2012. 850 hrs
YIO-360-M1B, mags, CS, GRT EX and WS H1s & A/P, Navworx
Unpainted, polished....kinda'... Eyeballin' vinyl really hard.
Yeah. The boss got a Silhouette Cameo 4 Xmas 2019.
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