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12-17-2013, 07:46 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 2,473
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There are also a few other things to consider...for example your IFR or VFR static / transponder checks, if you have a certified prop then maintenance on that (or a few other things) if you desire for it to remain certified (which goes back to your original airworthiness app and the 25/40 hr flyoff), instrument repairs on certain things, and possibly some acessories. So while most posts are for the most part technically correct, there are still other things to consider!
Just my 2 centas as usual.
Cheers,
Stein
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12-17-2013, 08:25 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 12,887
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There is a great deal of difference between an annual ?Condition Inspection? for an E-AB and an ?Annual Inspection? required for a ?certified? airplane such as a Cessna 172.
(Mel, correct me, if I?m wrong.)
A ?Condition Inspection? can be signed off by an A&P, no IA required. The purpose of the ?Condition Inspection? is to make sure the aircraft is in a condition for safe flight. Thus, if you remake your instrument panel, change an engine, change your prop or whatever, the A&P simply makes sure the airplane is safe.
An ?Annual Inspection? must be signed off by an IA. That signature indicates the aircraft conforms to a ?type certificate? and any additional 337 or approved modifications.
Check your ?Operating Limitations? for details.
Also, a ?Repairman Certificate? is another license, similar to an A&P license, issued by the FAA. It is given to the one person the FAA determines built a particular Experimental ? Amateur Built. That license allows the builder to continue to maintain it. For example, if you and I built identical airplanes, side-by-side, you could get the ?Repairman Certificate? for your plane and I could get one for my plane. You could sign off your plane?s Condition Inspection but not mine.
__________________
Bill R.
RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
O-360 w/ dual P-mags
Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
SC86 - Easley, SC
www.repucci.com/bill/baf.html
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12-17-2013, 08:36 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
Posts: 10,768
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Yes. Except for one minor point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by N941WR
There is a great deal of difference between an annual “Condition Inspection” for an E-AB and an “Annual Inspection” required for a “certified” airplane such as a Cessna 172.
(Mel, correct me, if I’m wrong.)
A “Condition Inspection” can be signed off by an A&P, no IA required. The purpose of the “Condition Inspection” is to make sure the aircraft is in a condition for safe flight. Thus, if you remake your instrument panel, change an engine, change your prop or whatever, the A&P simply makes sure the airplane is safe.
An “Annual Inspection” must be signed off by an IA. That signature indicates the aircraft conforms to a “type certificate” and any additional 337 or approved modifications.
Check your “Operating Limitations” for details.
Also, a “Repairman Certificate” is another license, similar to an A&P license, issued by the FAA. It is given to the one person the FAA determines built a particular Experimental – Amateur Built. That license allows the builder to continue to maintain it. For example, if you and I built identical airplanes, side-by-side, you could get the “Repairman Certificate” for your plane and I could get one for my plane. You could sign off your plane’s Condition Inspection but not mine.
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Anyone can maintain the aircraft. The repairman certificate relates ONLY to the condition inspection.
I know what you meant to say, but the wording is important to others reading this.
__________________
Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
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12-17-2013, 08:40 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Prescott, AZ
Posts: 1,614
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Can I return to the seller (builder with a repair cert. on the plane) each year and have him sign a conditional.... even though he no longer owns it?
He said he would love to see it and take a ride now and then....
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"Kindness is never a bad plan."
exemption option waived. Donation appropriate.
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12-17-2013, 08:47 PM
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VAF Moderator / Line Boy
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dayton, NV
Posts: 12,256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flightlogic
Can I return to the seller (builder with a repair cert. on the plane) each year and have him sign a conditional.... even though he no longer owns it?
He said he would love to see it and take a ride now and then....
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You can absolutely have him sign off the CONDITION inspection. I have no idea what a "Conditional" inspection is.... 
__________________
Paul F. Dye
Editor at Large - KITPLANES Magazine
RV-8 - N188PD - "Valkyrie"
RV-6 (By Marriage) - N164MS - "Mikey"
RV-3B - N13PL - "Tsamsiyu"
A&P, EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor
Dayton Valley Airpark (A34)
http://Ironflight.com
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12-17-2013, 08:50 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 4,435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N941WR
An ?Annual Inspection? must be signed off by an IA. That signature indicates the aircraft conforms to a ?type certificate?....
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There is no way an IA will have access to the specific engineering data which defines conformity to a type certificate. And I don't think there is any requirement that the aircraft be inspected to that specific standard.
Dave
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12-17-2013, 09:16 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N941WR
There is a great deal of difference between an annual ?Condition Inspection? for an E-AB and an ?Annual Inspection? required for a ?certified? airplane such as a Cessna 172.
(Mel, correct me, if I?m wrong.)
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Since Mel didn't entirely answer your question...
The standard is actually the same. Both inspections are to be completed in accordance with the scope and detail of AC43 appendix D. The reason that stipulation is in E-AB operating limitations is because of the fact that FAR 43 doesn't apply to Experimentals (stated in the very first paragraph of that Part), so the inspection standard requirement has to be written back in via the operating limitations.
The main difference is the level of certification required to do the inspection. For certificated aircraft, that is also stipulated in FAR 43. Since FAR 43 doesn't apply to experimentals, that is why the operating limitations also have to stipulate who can do the condition inspection.
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.
Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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12-17-2013, 09:24 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
Posts: 10,011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Paule
There is no way an IA will have access to the specific engineering data which defines conformity to a type certificate. And I don't think there is any requirement that the aircraft be inspected to that specific standard.
Dave
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As always, the FAA does have a standard... part of it says -
The aircraft should conform to the aircraft specification or type certificate data sheet, any changes by supplemental type certificates, and/or its properly altered condition. When the aircraft does not conform, use the procedures for “unairworthy” items listed in 14 CFR part 43, § 43.11(a)(5).
The document is here -
http://www.faa.gov/training_testing/...-g-8082-19.pdf
To rvbuilder2002 comment, while the airworthiness inspection may be the same for certified vs. experimental (Part 43, Appendix D), the standards are different if the inspector finds parts he deems to be not in the original aircraft specification. A wally mart part may be deemed airworthy and approved for an experimental, but if found in a critical location on a certified plane the IA is instructed to fail the inspection, or possibly create a 337 to authorize it.
If this wasn't the case, my Tiger would now be flying around with a nice Skyview system in it's panel... 
__________________
Gil Alexander
EAA Technical Counselor, Airframe Mechanic
Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
RV-6A N61GX - finally flying
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ
Last edited by az_gila : 12-17-2013 at 09:36 PM.
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12-17-2013, 09:51 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: AOTP
Posts: 192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight
I have no idea what a "Conditional" inspection is.... 
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Oh man, talk about geek-bait
work = months > 12 ? inspect:fly

__________________
Nauga
2004 RV-4
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12-17-2013, 11:17 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 2,125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N941WR
Also, a “Repairman Certificate” is another license, similar to an A&P license, issued by the FAA. It is given to the one person the FAA determines built a particular Experimental – Amateur Built. That license allows the builder to continue to maintain it. For example, if you and I built identical airplanes, side-by-side, you could get the “Repairman Certificate” for your plane and I could get one for my plane. You could sign off your plane’s Condition Inspection but not mine.
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Bill, just a little semantic fun (sort of), but calling a Repairman Cert similar to an A&P mayyyyyyy be a bit of a stretch. Don't get me wrong, its takes incredible effort to get each, and I have great respect for both, but the scope of requirements to obtain each, and the scope of authorizations each grants, is quite different. In fairness, you touched on that a bit. The painful similarity to me is that...I have neither  (need to work on that!)
One thing for Tram to consider (I don't think its been mentioned) is that you can do much, or most of the work on your condition inspection…it just needs to be signed off by an A&P. Prudence dictates that you work within your limitations, and under the watchful eye of the A&P (he'll likely require that)…but its a great way to get to know your airplane, and learn from a shmart guy in the process. I'm doing that very thing right now…I'm the labor, he's the brains. I learn, he earns (deservedly so!)
I do wish that if you have rebuilt 51% or more of your plane that you could earn a transfer of the Repairman's Certificate…but I know it aint gonna happen!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight
You can absolutely have him sign off the CONDITION inspection. I have no idea what a "Conditional" inspection is.... 
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Well, I guess who can do the inspection annually, to determine the Airworthy Condition of the aircraft, is Conditional upon what certificates one holds, conditionally speaking!
Quote:
Originally Posted by nauga
Oh man, talk about geek-bait
work = months > 12 ? inspect:fly

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What deep secrets is Nauga-hyding within that formula!
Cheers,
Bob
Last edited by rvmills : 12-17-2013 at 11:21 PM.
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