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  #1  
Old 11-27-2013, 09:23 PM
Warbirdsolutions Warbirdsolutions is offline
 
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Default Garmin G3X expert question

Does Garmin offer a product to make the internal GPS on the G3X a WAAS capable GPS? Dynon offers such a product or at least that was what I was told so I thought Garmin might as well.
I currently have a GNS480 which I planned to use as the WAAS GPS source for the future ADS-B out requirement but I have just been told that it is not currently able to do this. Supposedly there is an upgrade in the works at Garmin for the GNS480 to make it WAAS capable for this future requirement ( I believe its called MOPS). If this is true can you give me a guess as to cost and time frame of the upgrade to the 480. To make matters probably worse, my unit is actually an Apollo CNX80 so if the above happens to be true, will it be applicable to the Apollo unit as well?
If the G3X can not be made MOPS WAAS capable by some peripheral device (other than GNS400, 430 or 530), are there any plans to make something that will in the foreseeable future?
Thanks very much,
Brad Hood
Dynamic Aerosport
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  #2  
Old 11-28-2013, 08:34 AM
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g3xpert g3xpert is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warbirdsolutions View Post
Does Garmin offer a product to make the internal GPS on the G3X a WAAS capable GPS? Dynon offers such a product or at least that was what I was told so I thought Garmin might as well.
I currently have a GNS480 which I planned to use as the WAAS GPS source for the future ADS-B out requirement but I have just been told that it is not currently able to do this. Supposedly there is an upgrade in the works at Garmin for the GNS480 to make it WAAS capable for this future requirement ( I believe its called MOPS). If this is true can you give me a guess as to cost and time frame of the upgrade to the 480. To make matters probably worse, my unit is actually an Apollo CNX80 so if the above happens to be true, will it be applicable to the Apollo unit as well?
If the G3X can not be made MOPS WAAS capable by some peripheral device (other than GNS400, 430 or 530), are there any plans to make something that will in the foreseeable future?
Thanks very much,
Brad Hood
Dynamic Aerosport
Hello Brad,

The GPS receiver installed internal to every G3X display is already a WAAS GPS receiver and every one of these displays that has ever been shipped are likewise equipped with a WAAS GPS receiver.

We realize, however, that WAAS capability alone isn't really your question and you are asking if the WAAS GPS receiver inside the G3X display is or can be made to meet the requirements of FAR 91.227 as it relates to the position source requirements for ADS-B Out.

This is a very long story, and we could point you off to several previous threads, but we will try to make this short.

There are many requirements in FAR 91.227 relating to ADS-B Out, but this section defines the performance requirements:
(c) ADS-B Out Performance Requirements for NACP, NACV, NIC, SDA, and SIL--
(1) For aircraft broadcasting ADS-B Out as required under Sec. 91.225 (a) and (b)--
(i) The aircraft's NACP must be less than 0.05 nautical miles;
(ii) The aircraft's NACV must be less than 10 meters per second;
(iii) The aircraft's NIC must be less than 0.2 nautical miles;
(iv) The aircraft's SDA must be 2; and
(v) The aircraft's SIL must be 3.
(2) Changes in NACP, NACV, SDA, and SIL must be broadcast within 10 seconds.
(3) Changes in NIC must be broadcast within 12 seconds.

We highlighted what is probably the most important requirement as it relates to using a non-certified WAAS position source. While FAR 91.227 points to TSO?C166b and TSO?C154c to explain the meaning of "SDA = 2", Figure 9 of AC 20-165 makes it very clear.

A position source with an SDA of 2 must have less than a 10E-5 probability of failure causing transmission of false or misleading information and must have Level C hardware and software design assurance per DO-178B for software and DO-254 for hardware.

Sorry to give you a headache, but this is what those of us trying to use non-certified position sources are up against. Our non-certified position sources, while having very high performance, do not have Level C or higher hardware/software design assurance, so they don't presently meet the requirements of FAR 91.227 as required for 2020 compliance.

As you probably know, G3X systems without certified position sources (like GNS/GTN units) are transmitting ADS-B Out today with their internal WAAS GPS and GTX23ES or GTX330ES Mode S transponders and enjoying the benefits of ADS-B, but the SDA parameter is set to 0 (indicating non-certified design assurance). Perhaps the regulations will change by 2020 allowing VFR aircraft to continue to use non-certified position sources for ADS-B Out like we do today, but we don't know.

With regard to your question about the GNS480 software update, the GNS 480 software was updated in April 2015 to provide the ADS-B Out+ capability required to use it as a FAR 91.227 compliant position source. See this posting for details on the software versions.

Thanks,
Steve
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Last edited by g3xpert : 04-22-2015 at 05:10 AM. Reason: Added update for GNS 480
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  #3  
Old 11-28-2013, 10:47 AM
jgoehl jgoehl is offline
 
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Default

Does a new 430W output SDA 2 and have level C hardware and software?

Thanks
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  #4  
Old 11-28-2013, 10:57 AM
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dynonsupport dynonsupport is offline
 
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For the sake of accuracy and fairness:

The Dynon SkyView system is the same as the G3X in this area. We have a commercial WAAS GPS as part of our system, and while it is usable to activate ground stations to get accurate and complete ADS-B traffic, it is not certified and thus not currently 2020 compliant.

The nice thing about this situation is that our transponder is fully certified. So until December 2019, you can fly with this solution and get all the benefits of ADS-B. At that time, you can connect a certified/accepted GPS to the system, and in our opinion, GPS sources for ADS-B will be significantly less expensive 7 years from now.
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  #5  
Old 11-28-2013, 11:08 AM
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g3xpert g3xpert is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgoehl View Post
Does a new 430W output SDA 2 and have level C hardware and software?

Thanks
Hello Jeff,

Yes, you may connect any GNS/GPS 400W/420W/430W or GTN 6XX/7XX series IFR Navigator with the latest software to a Garmin Mode S extended squitter transponder like the GTX23ES or GTX330ES and the resultant ADS-B out squitter meets all the requirements of FAR 91.227 to be 2020 compliant including SDA.

Thanks,
Steve
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  #6  
Old 11-28-2013, 11:12 AM
Warbirdsolutions Warbirdsolutions is offline
 
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Default G3X Expert Question - Thanks

Steve,
Wow, sorry to have put you through that. I thought I had done a fair amount of research but I was obviously wrong. First, I didn't mean to imply I was comparing Garmin to Dynon as I intend to purchase the dual screen G3X system. I have never read anywhere that the internal GPS in the G3X is a WAAS system so I'm really glad to know that! I suppose the thing to do is wait a while and see if Garmin actually produces an upgrade to the Apollo CNX80.
Will an older GNS430W support the 2020 requirement? I'm sure you have covered this before but I haven't found it. Pretty confusing topic in it's entirety. Thanks very much for such a detailed explanation!
So does this mean the ground stations can tell the difference between Certified and non-Certified WAAS units?
Thanks again,
Brad
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  #7  
Old 11-28-2013, 11:20 AM
Warbirdsolutions Warbirdsolutions is offline
 
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Default NEVER MIND THE GNS430W QUESTION

Steve,
You apparently answered my question to Jeff while I was in the middle of writing. Could I bother you for the GNS430W software number that is 2020 compliant?
Thanks again,
Brad
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  #8  
Old 11-28-2013, 12:14 PM
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g3xpert g3xpert is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warbirdsolutions View Post
Steve,
Could I bother you for the GNS430W software number that is 2020 compliant?
Thanks again,
Brad
Hello Brad,

No bother at all.

Software Service Bulletin 1225B identifies the first 2020 compliant software for GNS 400W/500W Series Units. This is Main Software version 5.00 and GPS/WAAS Software Version 5.0.

SB 1225B was later superseded by SB 1317 for GNS 400W/500W Series Units with a Software Upgrade to Main Software Version 5.03 and GPS Software Version 5.0.

To answer your earlier question about whether the ground stations can tell the difference between certified and non-certified position sources, yes, the ground stations see the SDA parameter in your squitter and know if you are 2020 compliant with an SDA of 2 or if you are non-compliant with something less.

Today, ground stations do not deny any services (including TIS-B uplinks of Mode C traffic and ADS-R rebroadcast of ADS-B traffic) just because your position source is non-certified.

Just a reminder that FIS-B weather is broadcast to everyone, so this also has nothing to do with the design assurance of your position source.

Thanks,
Steve
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Please email us for support instead of using Private Messaging due to the limitations of the latter.
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  #9  
Old 11-28-2013, 12:32 PM
Warbirdsolutions Warbirdsolutions is offline
 
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Default Thanks

Thanks Steve!
Happy Thanksgiving!!!!
Brad
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  #10  
Old 11-28-2013, 06:37 PM
jgoehl jgoehl is offline
 
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Default

Thanks Steve,

Ordered a new 430W from Stein a couple days ago, will send in my 330 to get it upgraded after the first of the year

Happy Thanksgiving.

Jeff
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