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11-07-2013, 07:42 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Frederick, MD
Posts: 821
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Without getting into another discussion of FAR requirements, part 91 does require position lights and anti collision lights. The specs for those lights are in Part 23 and requires lights to meet certain requirements for intensity, angle or coverage and for position lights color. Even if you somehow don't believe that these requirements apply to you (because they are in part 23) it seems like a pretty good idea that the standards have some meaningful value. After all you do want the other guy to see you at some reasonable distance right. I guess technically one could put a single ordinary red or green LED on the wingtip and call them position lights, but your airplane won't be visible very far away.
For me, I want the other guy to see me as far away as practical. Using lights that meet the standards just makes plain good sense to me. Aeroleds and other who have gone to the trouble to do testing to verify that their lights meet the standards have found that LED's don't get you there easily. Therefore the extra cost.
No I'm not paid by Dean, but have participated is some of certification testing of lights.
__________________
Dan Morris
Frederick, MD
PA28-140
Hph 304CZ
RV6 built and sold
N199EC RV6A flying
Learn the facts. "Democracy dies in darkness"
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11-10-2013, 01:29 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: KUAO
Posts: 87
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I have the wingtip and tail lights from Ztron installed on my motorglider. Ztron's aviation line was pretty new when I bought from them, and they've provided outstanding support throughout some troubleshooting, including free upgrade of the wingtip lights to their later model.
I'd say the main difference (ignoring light output) is the way they are shielded against weather, in particular moisture. Ztron's lights are basically naked circuit boards with a plexiglass lens on top that is mounted to the aircraft with silicone sealant. You put the silicon on as you install the lights. As I understand it, some of the more expensive lights are completely sealed and no silicon is needed. Ztron advises to protect the lights from the elements when the aircraft is parked. No problem on my motorglider but a reason to go for a higher-priced option on my travel plane (a BD-4).
Just my 2cw.
Holger
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11-10-2013, 07:14 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Tampa (BKV)
Posts: 926
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The Whelen Microburst line is another option. With long experience making strobes in everything from police cars to airliners...it's wasnt difficult for me to choose Whelen. They are a name I trust, the units are experimental only with a pricepoint I'm not offended by.
__________________
RV-8 Flying
1,235th flying RV8
SARL Race#95
SnF Homebuilt Judge
2015 Sun n Fun Kit Built Reserve Grand Champion
2015 Oshkosh Kit Built Champion
2015 Jeffco Kit Built Grand Champion
2014 Oshkosh Outstanding Workmanship Award
Broken Warrior of the Jarhead Clan
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11-10-2013, 04:38 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 1,558
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Whelen microburst lights are bright, but they don't meet requirements for night flight. In fact their installation instructions say that on the first page of the instruction:
Quote:
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Product does not meet the requirements of 91.205(c), required equipment for night flight. Airplanes certified for night operation should not consider this product.
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I know nobody from the FAA is going to go out to the airport and measure the light output from various airplanes, but Whelen does make some very good LED lights that do meet the requirement, but at a higher price.
__________________
SH
RV6/2001 built/sold 2005
RV8 Fastback/2008 built/sold 2015
RV4/bought 2016/sold/2017
RV8/2018 built/Sold(sadly)
RV4/bought 2019 Flying
Cincinnati, OH/KHAO
JAN2020
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11-10-2013, 04:50 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Gardnerville Nv.
Posts: 2,828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RVDan
Without getting into another discussion of FAR requirements, part 91 does require position lights and anti collision lights. The specs for those lights are in Part 23 and requires lights to meet certain requirements for intensity, angle or coverage and for position lights color. Even if you somehow don't believe that these requirements apply to you (because they are in part 23) it seems like a pretty good idea that the standards have some meaningful value. After all you do want the other guy to see you at some reasonable distance right. I guess technically one could put a single ordinary red or green LED on the wingtip and call them position lights, but your airplane won't be visible very far away.
For me, I want the other guy to see me as far away as practical. Using lights that meet the standards just makes plain good sense to me. Aeroleds and other who have gone to the trouble to do testing to verify that their lights meet the standards have found that LED's don't get you there easily. Therefore the extra cost.
No I'm not paid by Dean, but have participated is some of certification testing of lights.
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A new experimental guy here asking a silly question, So, if we say we are set up for night flight we MUST meet the lighting requirements right? Or are some saying they are good to go and and not putting out the required lumens?
__________________
7A Slider, EFII Angle 360, CS, SJ.
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11-11-2013, 08:57 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 1,967
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Thanks Dean,
....for the explanation of the differences (and for being as objective as possible). I guess the available lighting solutions, especially LED lighting solutions, really do cover the entire spectrum!  (pun definitely intended) I for one, want to be very visible to other aircraft, both on the ground and in the air. I really like night flying, so for me, it's probably going to be between AeroLEDs http://www.aeroleds.com/and Aveo Engineering http://www.aveoengineering.com/. Right now, I'm leaning (or is it "LED'ing") towards Aveo. Then again, I know several people who are LED'ing towards AeroLEDs too. Some are going for HIDs from Ductworks and/or Whelen's, Baja Lights (racing?) or Ztron Labs too. I guess the answer is to do your homework, then do your shoppin'.
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11-11-2013, 09:30 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Tampa (BKV)
Posts: 926
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Hersha
Whelen microburst lights are bright, but they don't meet requirements for night flight. In fact their installation instructions say that on the first page of the instruction:
I know nobody from the FAA is going to go out to the airport and measure the light output from various airplanes, but Whelen does make some very good LED lights that do meet the requirement, but at a higher price.
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That's interesting, I did not know that. Still, my duckworks landing lights are not certified for anything at all and RVrs have been using them for years. With that said, not much of anything in an RV is certified including the lycoming in the front. I'm building an RV because certified prices offend me. I suspect the whelens will be more than adequate and that quote of theirs is to keep certified owners from sniffing out the microbursts.
__________________
RV-8 Flying
1,235th flying RV8
SARL Race#95
SnF Homebuilt Judge
2015 Sun n Fun Kit Built Reserve Grand Champion
2015 Oshkosh Kit Built Champion
2015 Jeffco Kit Built Grand Champion
2014 Oshkosh Outstanding Workmanship Award
Broken Warrior of the Jarhead Clan
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11-11-2013, 01:15 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Frederick, MD
Posts: 821
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FYI, there are only FAA defined lighting requirements for anti collision and position lights. Landing light requirements are nebulous- just have to be able to land and taxi the airplane by the lights provided.
LL are much less of a safety factor.
FYI, I have had the Aveo nav/strobe lights for 3 yrs, one just failed internally. No lights whatsoever. Warranty, hopefully.
__________________
Dan Morris
Frederick, MD
PA28-140
Hph 304CZ
RV6 built and sold
N199EC RV6A flying
Learn the facts. "Democracy dies in darkness"
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11-11-2013, 01:29 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: KUAO
Posts: 87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColoRv
I'm building an RV because certified prices offend me. I suspect the whelens will be more than adequate and that quote of theirs is to keep certified owners from sniffing out the microbursts.
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Would be good to know why the Whelen lights don't meet the FAA req's. Just not gone through the certification process, or actually not bright enough?
Holger
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11-11-2013, 02:18 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Delaware, OH (KDLZ)
Posts: 4,196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowbrush
Would be good to know why the Whelen lights don't meet the FAA req's. Just not gone through the certification process, or actually not bright enough?
Holger
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The data is all on an old thread here on VAF. The was a sales guy from Whelen who stated that their new inexpensive LED nav lights didn't meet TSO or the FARS. If my memory serves me correct it was both in brightness and pattern angles.
He commented that too many experimental builders wanted something cheap and didn't care about the specifications in the TSO or FARs. Naturally, many of us called that approach B.S. Yes, we want inexpensive, but we also want safe and we do want to meet all the FARs.
Dean fro AeroLEDs was active in the thread as well if that helps you to search.
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