RV-12 Formation Flying Interest?

[BillSchlatterer]

Bill, looks like there is interest ..... now are there enough airplanes in the local area ? Including you, there were two 12s at Petit Jean this year .... Maybe thats your start . I sent you the clinic info and RV formation guide by snail mail. Just need sight lines and airspeeds.... I would think the rest is pretty similar.

Somebody (RV12 drivers) should put the book together ..........

[Bill_H]

So I am reading the 2 formation books, read Dave G's great blog post, and will be at the 11-15 to 11-17 workshop in Pine Bluff AR, - auditing the ground school and maybe riding as a passenger. The hope is to eventualy form an RV12 formation group in this area! I think there are a couple of Pipersport LSAs nearby that would fit in, I have to check further. But, c'mon 12s!
Bill H., N412BR "Sweetie"

[JoeBlank]

Since I have access to flying them, I took it up on myself to develop this information in response to this VAF thread on using RV-12's for formation and at formation clinics. While not too many folks are using -12's for that yet, you may begin to see an increased interest in them for formation use. Eventually some, if not most of us, will end up going the LSA route based on aging and medical qualifications so better to be ahead of the curve when approached at clinics

To date, I have about 100 hours in the model and have flown it in a lot of formation with camera aircraft as well as other 'chase' aircraft. It is quite capable and has a max roll rate that approaches what most of short wing RV's (3,4,6,7,8) will do. It does not, however, lend itself to being flown in a mixed formation with those aircraft models. Bottom line, it is quite compatible with it's own kind; other RV-12's in a formation flight. The main differences are cruise speed, weight, and wing loading. With 120 KTS as the max cruise speed it will certainly not keep up with the other models unless they are throttled significantly back. The aircraft wing loading is comparatively light and will move around in the lightest of turbulence. Empty weights are typically around 730-750 lbs depending on additional equipment installed which is about 200-400 lbs lighter than the short wing models.

At this point I don't know any group that has used the RV-12 in a 4-ship formation (although they might already be doing just that). Based on my experience with the aircraft, I think it could be easily flown in this configuration with trained pilots. You have probably seen the young adults flying the Breezers at Sun n Fun and at OSH. They did a great job with a similar aircraft model, so it would stand to reason that the RV-12 can be operated in a similar way.

I have developed some sight reference lines that work pretty well and are easily seen. (See attached Formation Spacing graphics). The primary sight line is the Outboard Flaperon Hinge Bracket superimposed on the Prop Spinner, much the same as the short wing RV's. The secondary sightline is slightly different from what we use now. It's the forward base of the Vertical Stab (specifically the VS-1204 attach screw line) lined up with the Forward Outboard Stabilator Corner (Leading Edge). This gives adequate wingtip clearance and a slightly stepped down configuration. (See Sight Lines graphic). While these pictures aren't exactly in position, you get the idea.

Formation Spacing graphic


RV-12 Sight Line Targets


Formation Model Adam Burch Position shown slightly acute


Operating speeds should be around the 90-95KTS range which will give outside wingmen some power reserve. Since we have not done a 4-ship flight with them yet, the operating speeds are speculative at this time, but that range seems about right. I'm not sure what max bank angles this will allow until we actually get a flight of 4 in. The Slot, Trail, and Rejoin sight references should be very similar to the short wing RV's also.

So there you have it. Feel free to comment and add additional data as you see fit. I'll try to get further testing in when able so the information can be documented. This info has been forwarded on to Stu McCurdy and a few FFI Check Pilots for their input. The next steps would be to build an RV-12 Formation Syllabus for use in a clinic setting.

[wera710]

Those sight lines look pretty good Joe. About 35 degrees I'd guess? I've flown my RV-8 off Valcik's -12 a few times (for photos) and it seems to work much better than the 45 degree we tend toward in the other RVs.

I am happy to see this conversation developing. Here in eastern PA we have an increasing number of -12s who fly together in what can best be described as a loose gaggle. The end result is that their approach to any field ends up looking less than stellar. Happily they show a real interest in learning a more professional looking method and to that end a few lead and wing rated pilots will be putting on a ground school and local flights to help guide them along. I have them reading the RedStar manual right now, mainly because its extremely detailed with excellent illustrations. We have both FFI and FAST qualified RV guys in the area who can help.

Be great to see more 12 specific ideas or a syllabus. For instance, your recommendation of 90 knots really helps as it gives me a place to start for basic air and pattern work. I am used to “formating” with Yaks, T-34s, CJs, and RVs. Even a Bonanza or two. While the basics are the same, its good to see solid numbers on how to coach guys in the 12s.

On that note, would you recommend limiting bank angles to 35 deg or less? Pitch angles? Guessing 20 is pushing it as I could see the 12 exceeding redline in a descending turn. Same for Gee limits in manuevering. While our ground school will cover the basics of formation, I don't want to draw them into something that we are used to in the other RVs but that would exceed their specs. So no extended trail using lead and lag persuit, at least not like we do in the 6-7-8 series!

If you have any more useful info please forward it to me via the private messaging on this site. Not everyone can make the clinic in NC so we are hoping to have something more local to help guys like these along. We hope to do a class and some airwork most ricky tic, so any info would be helpful. Its just too embarrassing seeing them carry on like this, all gaggly in the pattern. ;-)

[Dvalcik]

Joe thanks for pulling this info together. I have been discussing this with Scott and others in his group. We have 3 - 5 guys up here planning on working with the team in the east.

Scott I resemble that remark ?loose gaggles?, but then again that much better than some of the other names.




Scott aka "Law Breaker" off my wing




Scott focused on the site line

Really looking forward to the training

[GeneL]

Someone might want to check with Rotax about using "geared" engines in formation. New formation pilots tend to jockey the throttle quite a bit, NOT what a gear box likes. Be safe!

[JoeBlank]

Originally Posted by wera710

I am happy to see this conversation developing. Here in eastern PA we have an increasing number of -12s who fly together in what can best be described as a loose gaggle. The end result is that their approach to any field ends up looking less than stellar. Happily they show a real interest in learning a more professional looking method and to that end a few lead and wing rated pilots will be putting on a ground school and local flights to help guide them along. I have them reading the RedStar manual right now, mainly because its extremely detailed with excellent illustrations. We have both FFI and FAST qualified RV guys in the area who can help.

Be great to see more 12 specific ideas or a syllabus. For instance, your recommendation of 90 knots really helps as it gives me a place to start for basic air and pattern work. I am used to ?formating? with Yaks, T-34s, CJs, and RVs. Even a Bonanza or two. While the basics are the same, its good to see solid numbers on how to coach guys in the 12s.

On that note, would you recommend limiting bank angles to 35 deg or less? Pitch angles? Guessing 20 is pushing it as I could see the 12 exceeding redline in a descending turn. Same for Gee limits in manuevering. While our ground school will cover the basics of formation, I don't want to draw them into something that we are used to in the other RVs but that would exceed their specs. So no extended trail using lead and lag persuit, at least not like we do in the 6-7-8 series!

Bill/Scott/David,

Great to see the interest here. In order to see a successful development of the RV-12 formation program, I highly recommend getting the newbs into a clinic setting at some point. The learning an comraderie is unparralled. As we reach a critical mass on the program, I can foresee an 'All RV-12' clinic happening. It might be really small at first though with a lot of newbs so weighting it on the more experienced side will be a requirement. At first, there is going to be a lot of 2 ship coached training until some of those guys are cleared 2 ship solo, then eventually 4 ship solo. We'll use the same FFI progression process as is currently used in the FFI clinic setting. It works well. Standardized instruction, signals, procedures...

Operational parameters are still undergoing review as we move forward. Newer formation pilots will want to keep pitch and bank angles fairly tame anyway. The limits at this point I would say would be 30* bank and 15* pitch to start with. Rotax RPM (5500), Airspeed (120), and G (4.0 Positive) will be the ultimate factoring limits for maneuvering (probably in that order).

I don't see any issues with Extended Trail, Lead/Lag/Pursuit maneuvering as those are fundamental skills all formation pilots need to know. It will happen in slow motion though comparative to the short wing aircraft. All good; Go slow; Be safe; Have fun! Can't wait to see the 1st RV-12 4-ship Overhead...

[wera710]

Hey Poprivet, get it right. If I gotta be stuck with this call sign, its LAWBREAKER, one word, not two!

Joe, thanks for the input on extended trail. I've never racked Dave's RV-12 around so I had just planned on approaching it slowly with them. Concentrate on rejoins from trail and leave the serious manuevering for the second or third flight. Right now I just want to get them comfortable in the very basics as they are starting from scratch.

I'd love to see you guys do an official mini-clinic north of the Carolina's. Talking to Dave, there may be enough -12s in our area with the interest. Our main issue up here is scheduling; Hard to get enough formation qualed guys together on a given weekend to put a body in every 12 as a coach. So its going to go slow for us at first, just two birds at a time. With a real clinic, these guys would really benefit from a solid weekend or even a solid day of multiple flights. I agree, the clinic environment is outstanding for fast tracking these skills. Hope to see you all put something together soon!

[Geico266]

Originally Posted by GeneL

Someone might want to check with Rotax about using "geared" engi in formation. New formation pilots tend to jockey the throttle quite a bit, NOT what a gear box likes. Be safe!

Not an issue according to the Rotax Service centers I just talked to.

I have 340 hours flying a -12, and 1200 hours flying behind 912's. Needless to say I used the throttle a lot. I have serviced several 912 gear boxes and never found a problem. back before the clutches were installed. Back when the 100hp version was brand new! BTW, I have never even heard of a gear box failure.



Yes! I am POed I sold my -12, I would have signed up for formation class!

[Dvalcik]

Training with Lawbreaker, great flying but intense. Can?t wait for the next training session with the guys.