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11-07-2013, 06:13 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: North Atlanta
Posts: 1,120
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The -4 does the same thing when you flare going slow but a high rate of decent. If you need to land short and you've made a gliding approach then simply flare at 15 or so feet up. It's extremely unnerving the first few times but it will make your short field over an obstacle much shorter.
I'm not saying to try to hold the flare at 15. Just stop the decent rate higher so you don't get that kick in the butt you get with a low flare. You may even add power but land shorter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyboy1963
Don, I have a similar experience. 150 hp FP -9a.
I generally glide to landing, of course carry power when I have to adjust for poor glidepath control.
But what I think I have observed, not scientifically, is when i have a stable approach at about 65 kts IAS, and hold that, when I flare, I bleed off speed to the stall and settle on the mains as expected.
When I am high on approach, I slow to more like 60, and the rate of sink increases dramatically! When I flare from this high energy descent, there seems to be a 'zoom' forward in ground effect, and it seems I float at least as far, if not farther, before actually touching down!
This kind of agrees with the true, 'drag it in with power' short field approach that we all practiced in spam cans.
a couple extra knots of forward speed may be easier to dissipate that 1500 lbs coming down at 1500 fpm!
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Sid Lambert
RV-7 Sold
RV-4 - Flying - O-320 Fixed Pitch - Red over Yellow
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11-07-2013, 06:41 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 193
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and, guys, i would emphasize a couple of points...
...practicing all this low speed stuff at altitude first and then very carefully, incrementally, in the pattern, before trying it when it HAS to be done. get LOTs of practice. get really comfortable with slow flight before doing it down low. always remember you are engine dependent when dragging it in to land short, and always remember you are not committed to any landing as long as the engine is running. i.e., be prepared to go around in a heartbeat if the slightest question about having it under control arises. my final comment is remember also that these airplanes react a lot differently in slow flight with an aft CG than with a forward one.
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11-07-2013, 06:43 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 12,887
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65 Kts in a 9(A)?
I do ALL my approaches at 60 Kts at full idle. Really simple, abeam the touchdown point, put in all the flaps and trim it for 60 Kts. Fly the entire pattern at 60, slowing it over the fence.
Remember, trim for airspeed and power for distance.
Even then, once in ground effect, you must slow it down before touching down to minimize your ground roll.
__________________
Bill R.
RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
O-360 w/ dual P-mags
Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
SC86 - Easley, SC
www.repucci.com/bill/baf.html
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11-07-2013, 06:56 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Western US
Posts: 98
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I'd trade short field landing capability for the RVs amazing takeoff and cruise performance anyday.
My Cessna can land in a much shorter spot than it can take off in, and the shortest landings come from full flap, full stall, 3 point landings at min controllable airspeed for approach. Power off makes hitting your intended touch down point tougher, but dragging it in with power makes it easier if there is no margin for missing it.
Here is one on a no wind day, with a 50 knot approach, power off, full flaps, touchdown right at the threshold, & applying brakes without lifting the tail off the ground while simultaneously removing all flaps right after touchdown for more weight on the wheels and firmly planting it on the runway. Stopped in about 200'. You'll notice full up elevator just before touchdown, holding it off until it just can't fly anymore.
If you really want short field landings, I'm willing to trade for an RV-8  There's nothing exciting about being able to land really short/slow unless I'm worried about the engine quitting over hostile terrain. Then it's nice to know you just need a parking lot sized space.
Click the photo below for the video

Last edited by Aryana : 11-07-2013 at 07:06 PM.
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11-07-2013, 07:00 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Western US
Posts: 98
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Can get it to stop in a little bit shorter distance if you stand on the brakes, but it's hard on the airframe when the tail comes down.

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11-07-2013, 07:30 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 1,499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by don.olandese
...practicing all this low speed stuff at altitude first and then very carefully, incrementally, in the pattern, before trying it when it HAS to be done. get LOTs of practice. get really comfortable with slow flight before doing it down low. always remember you are engine dependent when dragging it in to land short, and always remember you are not committed to any landing as long as the engine is running. i.e., be prepared to go around in a heartbeat if the slightest question about having it under control arises. my final comment is remember also that these airplanes react a lot differently in slow flight with an aft CG than with a forward one.
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Completely agree! I go out at full gross with the family and practice slow flight at 3000' AGL and 1' AGL(using 3/4 of the runway before going around), every 3-4 months. Thanks to my friend/CFI Ted for showing me the 1' AGL slow flight practice. Also stalls in all configurations. I approach at 68-70 kts in the -10, full flaps, power to idle, 1000 fpm descent, at full gross and still float for 100-200', so I know you -9 guys can get those speeds down safely. I rarely use brakes and mostly use aerodynamic braking...2500' unless brakes are used then I can get stopped in 1000' without catching them on fire. No way would try to make Van's numbers unless it is an actual emergency.
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Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
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11-07-2013, 08:22 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 4,435
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Flying in my Cessna 180, which has a similar wing loading and stall speed to an RV, short landings have a relatively slow speed on final, but at about hangar height or a little higher, I do a sort of pre-flare, where I reduce speed to the over-the-fence speed. The over-the-fence speed is way, way behind the power curve. I'll use power as necessary right after the pre-flare to get to the aim point on the runway. For a real short landing the final approach is flown to an aim point short of my real touch-down spot, knowing that the pre-flare and power will get me there; if I don't do it that way I land a bit long. This first point seems to be a hundred yards or so short of the real one.
What I've found is that there's a speed at which the plane will flare and round out nicely. There's a slower speed where it'll rotate for the flare, and moderate its rate of descent to near zero in ground effect, but with zero float - this is optimum. There's a still-slower speed where the attitude will change, it'll rotate just fine, but its trajectory won't change a whit until runway contact. This is too slow.
Power is, of course, at idle during the flare, but will probably - not always - be used before that.
All this takes practice.
Dave
Last edited by David Paule : 11-08-2013 at 08:23 PM.
Reason: Added the comment about behind the power curve.
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11-08-2013, 06:04 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 1,499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Paule
Flying in my Cessna 180, which has a similar wing loading and stall speed to an RV, short landings have a relatively slow speed on final, but at about hangar height or a little higher, I do a sort of pre-flare, where I reduce speed to the over-the-fence speed. I'll use power as necessary right after the pre-flare to get to the aim point on the runway. For a real short landing the final approach is flown to an aim point short of my real touch-down spot, knowing that the pre-flare and power will get me there; if I don't do it that way I land a bit long. This first point seems to be a hundred yards or so short of the real one.
What I've found is that there's a speed at which the plane will flare and round out nicely. There's a slower speed where it'll rotate for the flare, and moderate its rate of descent to near zero in ground effect, but with zero float - this is optimum. There's a still-slower speed where the attitude will change, it'll rotate just fine, but its trajectory won't change a whit until runway contact. This is too slow.
Power is, of course, at idle during the flare.
All this takes practice.
Dave
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Yes, we like the ones where we do a constant rate flare, level off and stall 6" up with 25-50' of float. Unfortunately it is difficult for me to repeat this every time.
I have not experienced the "not enough energy in reserve, flared too high, too late to add power, jar your teeth crash landing where pieces get left on the runway and bent metal".
__________________
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
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11-08-2013, 07:08 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,010
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Lots of Good Advice Here..
Don:
Practice.
At a field where there's a VASI or PAPI lights.
Stay on the glide path.
Work your way progressively down to 53-55 on final.
Stay on the glide path.
Stay off the brakes.
Don't let the nose touch until you run out of elevator.
Note how your float and rollout distances decreases with lower approach speeds.
You should have plenty of energy left for a smooth flare even at 53-55.
If your approach is too flat (you're dragging it in):
You'll have difficulty clearing obstacles when you need to.
You'll have to maintain a higher angle of attack (and likely add power).
Attempting to flare with the wing near the critical angle increases the odds of banging it in.
Practice.
Stay off the brakes.
Don't let the nose touch until you run out of elevator.
If you ever get near KPTK, look me up. We'll practice together.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
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11-08-2013, 08:23 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,179
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I am confident I can touch down and stop my RV-8 in the VAN's number if - like the C-170 video shows - I have 2200' of clear flat land before my touch down point and 750' of that is assault.
For most cases, "short field" comes with a number of other attributes like grass or unimproved surface, trees or power lines or structures, etc.
For me, there is no magic. It's energy management and practice in lots of different situations.
... I'm a practicing pilot.
Last edited by humptybump : 11-08-2013 at 08:26 AM.
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