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11-06-2013, 12:36 PM
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Super Moderator
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 1,158
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E-LSA, S-LSA Annual Sign Off
I have a few questions about signing off the annual for an E-LSA.
As I understand it, an A&P can sign off an E-LSA and does not need to be an IA. And that this is stated in the airworthiness certificate (I have not read mine). Is this correct for most RV-12 E-LSA's?
Would you need to be an IA to do an S-LSA?
Second, is there any "Rotax" specific training that is needed to sign off the annual for either an E-LSA or an S-LSA?
I have not taken the 16 hour course yet but will get this done before the next annual.
Thanks in advance.
__________________
Scott Schmidt
Salt Lake City, UT
RV-10 N104XP (1280 Hours)
RV-12 N321UT (Sold)
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11-06-2013, 12:59 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Elkton, Md.
Posts: 1,652
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottSchmidt
I have a few questions about signing off the annual for an E-LSA.
As I understand it, an A&P can sign off an E-LSA and does not need to be an IA. And that this is stated in the airworthiness certificate (I have not read mine). Is this correct for most RV-12 E-LSA's?
Would you need to be an IA to do an S-LSA?
Second, is there any "Rotax" specific training that is needed to sign off the annual for either an E-LSA or an S-LSA?
I have not taken the 16 hour course yet but will get this done before the next annual.
Thanks in advance.
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Scott, the A/P can sign off either ELSA or SLSA. No Rotax specific training required, but some experience with them would be helpful.
__________________
Wag Aero Sport Trainer built,sold and wrecked
N588DF RV12 #336 built, sold and alive and well in New York
N73DF RV12 #244 built, sold and alive and well in Florida
N91 RV RV9 I wish I could say I built this one! Mark Santoleri hit the ball out of the park on this gem.
Currently restoring a 1978 Citabria GCBC
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11-06-2013, 02:38 PM
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Super Moderator
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 1,158
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Thanks
I appreciate that feedback. There is lots of misunderstanding out there when it comes to E-LSA and S-LSA.
__________________
Scott Schmidt
Salt Lake City, UT
RV-10 N104XP (1280 Hours)
RV-12 N321UT (Sold)
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11-06-2013, 03:50 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave12
Scott, the A/P can sign off either ELSA or SLSA. No Rotax specific training required, but some experience with them would be helpful.
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E-LSA this is correct... for S-LSA it is not.
The ASTM's require and give the authority to the manufacturer to specify what level of certification or training is required to do any maint or repair function on their product. That is why the RV-12 maint manual has certification levels listed with all of the procedures listed.
Rotaxs' documentation specifies a specific level of training for every maint or repair process (even oil change).
An E-LSA RV-12 owner is not bound by those requirements because it is an experimental aircraft, though it could be a factor in a warrantee claim if the person doing preventative maint doesn't have the preventative maint specific training (RFSC Rotax 912 Service Specialty training).
So for E-LSA, the only requirement to meet is that stipulated in the operating limitations for who can do the condition inspection (A&P or LSA Repairman Inspector).
For S-LSA, all engine work must be done by someone with the minimum level of FAA required certification (LSA Repairman Maintenance or A&P) and the proper level of Rotax Specific Training.
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.
Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
Last edited by rvbuilder2002 : 11-06-2013 at 03:53 PM.
Reason: typo
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11-06-2013, 04:13 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
Posts: 10,768
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What Scott said!
ELSAs are certificated with a special airworthiness certificate in the Experimental category and SLSAs are certificated with a special airworthiness certificate in the Light-Sport category. Neither of these categories require IA.
__________________
Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
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11-06-2013, 05:09 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 322
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Originally Posted by Dave12 View Post
Scott, the A/P can sign off either ELSA or SLSA. No Rotax specific training required, but some experience with them would be helpful.
E-LSA this is correct... for S-LSA it is not.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The ASTM's require and give the authority to the manufacturer to specify what level of certification or training is required to do any maint or repair function on their product. That is why the RV-12 maint manual has certification levels listed with all of the procedures listed.
Rotaxs' documentation specifies a specific level of training for every maint or repair process (even oil change).
An E-LSA RV-12 owner is not bound by those requirements because it is an experimental aircraft, though it could be a factor in a warrantee claim if the person doing preventative maint doesn't have the preventative maint specific training (RFSC Rotax 912 Service Specialty training).
So for E-LSA, the only requirement to meet is that stipulated in the operating limitations for who can do the condition inspection (A&P or LSA Repairman Inspector).
For S-LSA, all engine work must be done by someone with the minimum level of FAA required certification (LSA Repairman Maintenance or A&P) and the proper level of Rotax Specific Training.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++
Hi Dave,
The FAA came out in writing a couple of years back on Rotax training.
They said Rotax could not force anyone to take their training to be able to work on the Rotax. Rotax can not impose any rules or regs above what the FAA has in place or make policy.The but here was they went on to say that mechanics had to have training, have the manuals and have the proper tools for that engine. So mechanics in the FAA's eyes still need Rotax training, but it can come from anyone. I get hired from time to time by shops to come and train their staff. That in the FAA's eyes qualifies. Do all the mechanics follow this, no, but if a plane crashes the FAA is going to ask the mechanic where he learned to work on a Rotax. That will definitely up his liability if he says he has never had any training. A&P's get Cont. and Lycoming training.
A sport pilot may work on his plane as described under the preventive maint. section in the FAR's that GA pilots work under. You can only do this to your plane. You can not do any thing to an SLSA past preventative maint. unless you are an LSRM-A or A&P as usually specified in the aircraft's manual.
As an ELSA anyone (trunk monkey included) can do the work on the plane. At the annual condition only an LSRM-A, A&P or someone that has had the 16 hr. FAA approved class can do the annual or 100 hr inspection.
Scott is also right that the aircraft MFG can specify who works on the aircraft provided they do not exceed their authority when doing so. During a Rotax warranty claim Rotax can specify a Rotax qualified mechanic do the work depending on what the work is. If it is minor they may not care, but major work has to be an authorized mechanic.
Many LSA MFG's put things in manuals, but the one document that really counts is the POH and that is where some MFG's fall down and don't included enough. It may be in some other manual, but it may not have any teeth for enforcement.
__________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, AZ
Last edited by roger lee : 11-06-2013 at 05:12 PM.
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11-06-2013, 05:30 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: La Feria Texas
Posts: 3,822
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This can become a problem. Many A&P's will not work on a Rotax regardless of training requirements (some will not work on any Experimental). Despite there being several shops run by IA's, and of course a batch of us A&P types, you have to fly someone in from a distant location for simple maintenance here if you own a Rotax powered plane. As they get more popular, I would expect that to change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by roger lee
Originally Posted by Dave12 View Post
Scott, the A/P can sign off either ELSA or SLSA. No Rotax specific training required, but some experience with them would be helpful.
E-LSA this is correct... for S-LSA it is not.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The ASTM's require and give the authority to the manufacturer to specify what level of certification or training is required to do any maint or repair function on their product. That is why the RV-12 maint manual has certification levels listed with all of the procedures listed.
Rotaxs' documentation specifies a specific level of training for every maint or repair process (even oil change).
An E-LSA RV-12 owner is not bound by those requirements because it is an experimental aircraft, though it could be a factor in a warrantee claim if the person doing preventative maint doesn't have the preventative maint specific training (RFSC Rotax 912 Service Specialty training).
So for E-LSA, the only requirement to meet is that stipulated in the operating limitations for who can do the condition inspection (A&P or LSA Repairman Inspector).
For S-LSA, all engine work must be done by someone with the minimum level of FAA required certification (LSA Repairman Maintenance or A&P) and the proper level of Rotax Specific Training.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++
Hi Dave,
The FAA came out in writing a couple of years back on Rotax training.
They said Rotax could not force anyone to take their training to be able to work on the Rotax. Rotax can not impose any rules or regs above what the FAA has in place or make policy.The but here was they went on to say that mechanics had to have training, have the manuals and have the proper tools for that engine. So mechanics in the FAA's eyes still need Rotax training, but it can come from anyone. I get hired from time to time by shops to come and train their staff. That in the FAA's eyes qualifies. Do all the mechanics follow this, no, but if a plane crashes the FAA is going to ask the mechanic where he learned to work on a Rotax. That will definitely up his liability if he says he has never had any training. A&P's get Cont. and Lycoming training.
A sport pilot may work on his plane as described under the preventive maint. section in the FAR's that GA pilots work under. You can only do this to your plane. You can not do any thing to an SLSA past preventative maint. unless you are an LSRM-A or A&P as usually specified in the aircraft's manual.
As an ELSA anyone (trunk monkey included) can do the work on the plane. At the annual condition only an LSRM-A, A&P or someone that has had the 16 hr. FAA approved class can do the annual or 100 hr inspection.
Scott is also right that the aircraft MFG can specify who works on the aircraft provided they do not exceed their authority when doing so. During a Rotax warranty claim Rotax can specify a Rotax qualified mechanic do the work depending on what the work is. If it is minor they may not care, but major work has to be an authorized mechanic.
Many LSA MFG's put things in manuals, but the one document that really counts is the POH and that is where some MFG's fall down and don't included enough. It may be in some other manual, but it may not have any teeth for enforcement.
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11-06-2013, 09:57 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger lee
The FAA came out in writing a couple of years back on Rotax training.
They said Rotax could not force anyone to take their training to be able to work on the Rotax.
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Roger,
Please direct me to where I can view the written policy from the FAA.
Scott
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.
Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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11-06-2013, 11:06 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Independence, OR
Posts: 56
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This was discussed in the 120 hour LSRM course at Rainbow Aviation. She (Carol Carpenter) has a copy of the letter from the FAA to her in response to this question. See rainbowaviation.com, click on Letters:FAA legal, click on Response to Rotax...
Or go to it directly at http://rainbowaviation.com/articles/...202%202012.pdf
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11-06-2013, 11:29 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 322
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Hi Scott,
I published it on the Sport Pilot Talk forum and the CT Flier forum back then.
The letter was not a wide spread distribution. You would have to go and find it. Call Carol Carpenter at Rainbow Aviation and see if she can send you a copy. This letter came out about April of 2010 and addressed other LSA questions. It went through FAA legal.
__________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, AZ
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