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  #11  
Old 10-31-2013, 07:01 PM
jswareiv jswareiv is offline
 
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Originally Posted by HeliCooper View Post
I triple checked I was using the #40 CS. I think tolerance is just too close. Going one turn at a time I used just a deburring tool and even with the head still just proud of the surface the hole was starting to enlarge. I had to do this because two of the holes were too close to the flange to use the microstop. I am going to dimple it. Thanks for the suggestions on CS in the future though. I will definitely remember them.
I would give Van's a call just to verify.
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  #12  
Old 10-31-2013, 07:32 PM
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Bob Kuykendall Bob Kuykendall is offline
 
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Originally Posted by HeliCooper View Post
...Going one turn at a time I used just a deburring tool and even with the head still just proud of the surface the hole was starting to enlarge...
You might check the angle on that deburring tool. I think that a lot of deburring tools have an included angle of 90 degrees to put a nice chamfer on a hole, while MS20426 countersunk rivets (and the countersinks for them) have an included angle of 100 degrees. If you use a 90-degree tool to countersink for a #3 rivet, I think you'll knife-edge and enlarge the hole in any sheet thinner than 0.038" before the head goes flush. And though you won't see it by looking at the top of the head, the cones of the hole and the rivet won't really fit together right. I don't know what the angle of your deburring tool is, but it would probably be good to check.

Thanks, Bob K.
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  #13  
Old 10-31-2013, 08:30 PM
HeliCooper HeliCooper is offline
 
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Here is a picture of the hole with a rivet inserted backwards. This was using the deburring tool and the rivet will still sit proud of the surface. You can see that the hole is already starting to enlarge. It is a 100 degree hex deburring tool in a small low speed electric drill.

Edit for added picture

Last edited by HeliCooper : 10-31-2013 at 08:37 PM.
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  #14  
Old 11-01-2013, 06:34 AM
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JanRV6UK JanRV6UK is offline
 
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Ok .. I have gone wrong with the English vs American before … :-)

But thinking a bit more about this … “Counter Sink” question .. does not tell you how to do it … Just what you have to do ..

You can Dimple CS OR Machine CS … Does the manual for the 14 make this distinction ?? Or do I make you even more confused ?? !!
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  #15  
Old 11-01-2013, 07:15 AM
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M McGraw M McGraw is offline
 
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Originally Posted by HeliCooper View Post
I am trying to countersink the VS-702 for the VS-01401 doubler. The problem I am having is I cannot get the sink deep enough before the hole enlarges. What am I doing wrong? I have already reordered the VS-702 as the first countersink enlarged the pilot hole and then wobbled badly. I then tried countersinking with the deburring tool. With the rivet still sitting just proud of the surface the hole is already starting to enlarge.

Not a fantastic start to the project.
HeliCooper,

I believe you are referring to Page 06-02 Step 6. Part VS702 and part VS01401 are each 0.032 thick. I clecoed them together to give the countersink pilot more grip. Drilled a 2x4 with the hole pattern and clecoed both parts to the board. Slid two pieces of .032 scrap up to the edge to let the countersink lay flat and performed the countersinking of the four holes (the two outboard holes conflicted with the width of the countersink cage, I did those with a deburring handle and a piloted countersink cutter). The reason that bottom row needs to be countersunk from the backside is so that the front spar will fit over part number VS01402 on page 11-08 Figure 1.

I chose to countersink as per the plans; however, there is no conflict with dimpling as shown in the figure referenced above. I will say, I suspect Van's prefers a countersink because the edge distance for that row is 0.218 rather than the 0.025 to 0.030 edge distances of the rest of the Vertical Stabilizer parts.

Marvin

NOTE: The edge distances as measured are actually from the hole centerline, not the edge of the hole.
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Last edited by M McGraw : 11-01-2013 at 11:34 AM.
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  #16  
Old 11-01-2013, 09:41 AM
HeliCooper HeliCooper is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JanRV6UK View Post
Ok .. I have gone wrong with the English vs American before ? :-)

But thinking a bit more about this ? ?Counter Sink? question .. does not tell you how to do it ? Just what you have to do ..

You can Dimple CS OR Machine CS ? Does the manual for the 14 make this distinction ?? Or do I make you even more confused ?? !!
The plans actually specify Machine CS. That being said I did contact Van's and they said that it could be dimpled. I re did the CS on my now piece of scrap 702 with the doubler attached. This helped alot. The rivet sits flush, there was no wobble, but when you take the doubler off and insert the rivet backwards again you can see that the hole enlarged. Is this acceptable to some standard. I assume the rivet hole needs to remain tight around the rivet. Additionally there were no score marks on the doubler so the CS did not get to it.
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  #17  
Old 11-01-2013, 09:49 AM
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flion flion is offline
 
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You seem to have figured it out already, but always countersink with a guide piece unless the part you are countersinking is very thick. If the part doesn't nest to a doubler, like the part you are discussing, then I drill it to a piece of wood and use that for a countersinking guide. If the countersink is deep enough to let the pilot protrude through the other side, there is a danger that you can tip the countersink, causing an oblong countersink and possibly an enlarged hole. The cage does not fully prevent this, so having a guide hole behind the part will improve your odds.
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  #18  
Old 11-01-2013, 12:01 PM
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Bob Kuykendall Bob Kuykendall is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeliCooper View Post
...I assume the rivet hole needs to remain tight around the rivet...
That's kind of true, but not an absolute. When you dig into it (AC43.13 is a good resource for this), you find that there is rather a range of acceptable hole sizes for the various rivet sizes. The key here is that driving a rivet compresses it lengthwise and expands its diameter, so within limits the rivet expands to fill the hole it's in. The "official" hole sizes in AC43.13 are pretty conservative, and I've seen some pretty oversize holes filled acceptably with good riveting technique. Not that I recommend it; I'm just observing that it can be done.

Thanks, Bob K.
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  #19  
Old 11-01-2013, 03:23 PM
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LAMPSguy LAMPSguy is offline
 
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Default CS Cage

All mechanical items have SOME tolerance. I purchased two identical cages at the same time from the same supplier and one is fine while the other is not. The bottom bearing has obvious slop in it (this can be felt as a rough feeling when turning the spindle by hand). This was enough to enlarge the bottom of my CS holes just enough to make me move from a -3 to a -4 rivet in my spars (per contact with Vans). I realized too late (after successful practice on scrap) that my cage was to blame.

I would check to be sure this is not the problem or similar...I assume you used a cage first then did it by hand to go a little deeper? If you never used a cage because you couldn't fit it in there, even a few degrees from "normal" to the surface might explain the hole enlargement.
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  #20  
Old 11-01-2013, 04:35 PM
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JanRV6UK JanRV6UK is offline
 
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If you are not able to get your full cage cutter in a tight corner .. just get a grinder out and 'trim' the cage a bit . you can even buy them with 1/2 cages for close quarter work ... Go on eBay and buy a few second hand ... I bought several of eBay and find it easier to have them set up for each size... Get a US made .. not China clone ... then trim one back to 1/2 cage ... great time saver to have them set up for the right size ...
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