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10-11-2013, 02:51 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 6,797
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Agreed; I should have said "caution" bells.
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10-12-2013, 06:19 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Southlake, Texas
Posts: 626
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IFR
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Axsom
I got my instrument rating in 1984 and from 1988 through 2004 I flew to work daily in the Los Angeles basin an a Piper Archer II. Very stable airplane with an autopilot but I never used it. My wife Jeanine and I built our RV-6A from 1996 through 2004 when I retired. I decided that I never used the autopilot so I did not install one. I flew it for a year IFR that way. The workload to me was very demanding. After a particularly difficult approach to Winston-Salem, NC I knew I needed the autopilot and installed a TruTrak Pictorial Pilot and Altrac altitude hold - tremendous improvement.
I originally installed an SL-60 panel mount GPS nav/com, a SL-40 Com and a Terra Nav radio with an electronic display similar to the dual Bendix BX 2000 that was in the Archer. It worked and met the requirements for ILS, Localizer and VOR approaches but switching NAV frequencies to get step down fixes during approaches was not a pleasant experience in an airplane that is as fast and maneuverable as the RV. To improve this I replaced the SL-40 with a SL-30 and an additional GS/LOC/VOR display.
Following a race in Llano. TX earlier this year there was a severe weather forcast for damaging hail in that area and the weather back at Fayetteville, Arkansas where I now live was forecast to be VMC. My solution was to file IFR and get on my way. No alternate was required and I only had 38 gallons of fuel and would have had to do some fine calculating to get to FYV do a missed approach fly to the alternate and still have 45 minutes reserve and the incoming weather did not permit me the time to do that. I did know that Springdale, Rogers and Northwest Arkansas Regional were nearby and I would have no trouble getting to them if necessary. As I neared Fayetteville I learned via ATIS that the airport was below approach minimums so I called Razorback Approach told them the situation and asked for the ILS approach to Springdale. I was told that both Springdale and Rogers ILS were out of service and that the only ILS available in northwest Arkansas was at XNA. I said that I needed to go to XNA and fly that approach. XNA ATIS was calling the ceiling at 300 and low visibility. I flew the approach in ragged form, knowing that this approach must be completed or ... there was no option. At 300 feet I saw the glow of the approach lights through the haze and everything worked out OK but it was not easy and it was not a routine confident flight operation. This experience should alert you to several things:
- RVs are not simple to fly IFR airplanes with a lot of performance margin.
- Some times the weather forecast is wrong.
- Actual conditions can be such that you have to rush to get airborne.
- Ground based navigational aids are not being maintained reliably
- Glass panel navigation is best probably but obsolescence and product support threats exist
Last week I flew to Waupaca, Wisconsin for another air race on Saturday 10-5-13 and the weather was marginal. I could go whenever I wanted and the weather was supposed to get worse later in the week so I decided to make the trip on Thursday. I had to decide whether to fly IFR or VFR and I said to myself just take the time and replan the flight for IFR. I found I could go direct to Razorback then V63 to Oshkosh at 7,000 feet. I thought I could land there or continue to Waupaca depending on conditions. I took off and all went well until northern Missouri. There, Kansas City Center told me they could give me a vector around some weather but they said there is a cell to the right and another to the left of your course and if you continue that line it appears you will avoid the bad weather. I said that I would just continue my current course. In the past I have scoffed at concerns for turbulence. I flew into this big solid white cloud on autopilot and the turbulence was so bad that I didn't know if the airplane would survive it. I had Jeanine's headset on with the thick leather and wool pad on top because my mic performance is getting marginal. At one point I was smashed into the canopy so hard that I might have been knocked out without it - I have hit my head in rough weather before but nothing like this. I did not know if this was the way my life would end in the next few minutes or not but I knew that I had to do my part correctly for any chance of survival. When I entered a momentary clearing I cancelled IFR and descended below the clouds around Hannibal, Missouri. There I could see the massive black formations on the left and right of my course and deviated north around the back of the one on the right and refueled at Burlington, Iowa, From there I flew at about 1,000 ft AGL to Waupaca deviating many times to avoid weather. More lessons learned.
IFR allows you to fly when the VFR only pilot is grounded but it can kill you. The ground elevation on this trip was around 800 feet. In the past two years I have flown to your part of the country eight times (16 oneway flights) for races in Washington, Idaho, Montana and Reno (not as a racer) and there is no way I would fly there in IMC with an RV. The victor airways are not always the best routes for example, the direct route from Goodland, Kansas to Sheridan, Wyoming is much safer than Goodland - Cheyenne - Muddy Mountain - Crazy Woman - Sheridan
It is often said (by instructors especially) that getting an instrument rating will make you a better pilot. I say that it will demonstrate that you focused on a goal and persisted until you got the rating. I think it exposes you to additional knowledge and procedures but it is a transient skill that must be exercised regularly to maintain and it exposes the pilot to greater risks in exchange for the convenience.
Bob Axsom
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Good story Bob. Thanks for sharing it.
After thirty five years as a professional pilot I am more restrictive with myself than most IFR pilots I talk to. The Doll is very well equipped with a two screen G3X, GTN 650 navigator/Com, two axis auto pilot, and all the weather, and traffic bells and whistles, and can fly a very nice coupled approaches if desired. In addition, HWA extended range AUX tanks increases the fuel capacity to 51 gallons. Never the less, I ask myself before filing: Do you really need to do this?
Back at Laughlin Air Force Base above the door in "H" Flight (a T-38 undergraduate pilot training flight room) there is a sign the reads:
It is far better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, then be in the air wishing you were on the ground! I've been both places!
It comforts me to know that the Doll is equipped for IFR if ever I need it, but I can't get past the thought that the Air Force and American Airlines paid me to fly IFR into all kinds of weather. No one does that now!
__________________
Danny King
Beautiful Doll 80434 TT 1675 hours
I0360 A1B6 200 HP
Christen Inverted Oil
First Flight 12 July 2000
VAF Dues current for 2020
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10-12-2013, 07:20 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 36
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Thanks for sharing your experience Bob. What a story - lots of lessons to be learned from that!
An IFR rating is certainly an asset but should be used judiciously. Good decision making is essential when deciding whether to fly IFR. Being instrument rated is an excellent survival tool should you ever be surprised when flying VFR, a fate to which many non instrument rated pilots have succumbed and met their demise.
Whilst I've not yet finished my RV-7 I will not be equipping it for IFR flight but it will be equipped as a very redundant VFR airplane with two GPS's and an EFIS, MFD and autopilot from none other than Rob Hickman's company, AFS. The reason for my decision is that after a long and colorful career starting with the military and ending up with a major European Airline from which I'm soon to retire, I'm just not prepared to fly in IMC with a single engine aircraft without de-icing and redundant independent avionics systems (and no co-pilot to keep an eye on me). I think that my plane will be adequately equipped to get me through a medium height layer of clouds, should I experience an unexpected change in the VMC conditions I intend to operate in.
Having said that, it is my intention to retain my instrument rating after retirement and I will be passing my skills onto others as a flight instructor. I also agree with Rob Hickman who I believe has an excellently equipped RV-10 with a good level of redundancy. Rob has in the past also demonstrated good judgement and decision making by having a plan B after being surprised by an unexpected turn in the weather, making a safe landing at an airport with adequate weather and taking a ride home in an airliner.
Airlines, the military and reputable corporate fleets have Flight Operations Manuals where the crews have to stick to very stringent rules governing the selection of airports, decision making and carriage of fuel in adverse weather conditions. Most companies refer to it as their bible and it generally keeps crews and passengers out of harms way.
In the general aviation world, everyone has to write his own bible before making that all important decision whether to take off or not. First and foremost, in a single engined aircraft you should have an overnight bag and a credit card so that you are not pressured to make that fateful flight. Be prepared to sleep over/use alternate means to get home should you be surprised by the weather. Secondly you should have a plan B consistent with the way your aircraft is equipped, for instance if you don't have redundant instruments and avionics, you should have a reachable alternate airfield that is definitely going to be VMC. And lastly if you do have all the whistles and the bells and adequate alternate airfields, you'll have to be comfortable with the fact that if the prop stops, when you break out of the clag at 200 feet, you'll have around 15 seconds before you hit the ground. If we have an engine failure with the airliner I fly, we declare an emergency and land at the nearest suitable airport. The remaining engine has a comfortable power margin and is about 1000 times more reliable than a Lycoming piston engine! Go figure!
Last edited by Mounz : 10-12-2013 at 07:38 AM.
Reason: Spelling
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10-12-2013, 04:37 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 96
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Learning to fly was fun. Getting the instrument rating was challenging and hard work, far from fun. The only fun time was looking up at the end of an approach and seeing(hopefully) the runway in front of you.
__________________
Bill
RV-8
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10-12-2013, 04:46 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 6,797
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To each his own
Quote:
Originally Posted by billdianne
Getting the instrument rating was challenging and hard work, far from fun.
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Some would say the same thing about chess. Yet others do play regularly for personal satisfaction and enjoyment.
Same with instrument flying.
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10-12-2013, 08:18 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chesterfield, Missouri
Posts: 4,514
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Flying an RV IFR at FL180 and above is like taking a 24' outboard fishing boat to sea, not wise to do so. The environment can be most hostile and no fun to deal with even with equipment designed for the mission. Many a time the thought was - sure glad to not be here in a light airplane.
__________________
RV-12 Build Helper
RV-7A...Sold #70374
The RV-8...Sold #83261
I'm in, dues paid 2019 This place is worth it!
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10-13-2013, 05:43 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,082
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Tim, it is ashame that others would tell you that there is no advantage to getting an instrument rating. I think every pilot should aspire to an instrument rating and at the very least take some instruction even if you don't get the rating. In my flying I can point to three things that exponentially made me a better and safer pilot. First was getting my instrument rating, second was formation flying, and third was my tail wheel instructor who was an old timer that taught me true and pure stick & rudder flying skills. Each one of these brought precision, knowledge, safe confidence, and skills that a basic VFR spam-can driver has not been exposed to. I do not use my instrument rating often but I keep current which keeps me sharp. I have witnessed the same precision from other pilots that also got their instrument rating. At the very least start taking some instruction and decide for yourself. I think you will find it not only fun but your skills will improve quickly plus it will impart knowledge that is advantagous for VFR flying.
For the mission you decribed, twice a month from BC to Denver, the airlines will be your best bet with perhaps occasionally doing it on your own. I agree with all the others on why an RV is not great in the flight levels. If that is where you want to go on a consistent basis you will want a plane that is not only certified for flight into known icing but also turbocharged or turbine not to mention the need for either a oxygen mask or presurized cabin and a good heater. I have flown in my buddies Meridian a few times and it was pleasurable smooth ride at FL260 overtop the wx. Then there was the flight we were dodging wx and had to divert and land because the route was a solid block of severe thunderstorms up to 45,000', bad enough to close down two Class B airports and many others.
__________________
Mike
JAMES AIRCRAFT.com
Flying - RV8 Hot Rod "Drone Killer"
Flying - RV8 "Look'n Good"
RV4 - FAST & FUN! Rebuilt, Flown, Sold
RV-7A Built, Flown, Sold
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