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  #21  
Old 10-06-2013, 11:02 AM
Wayne Gillispie Wayne Gillispie is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N401RH View Post
The stadium TFR's locations are in the ADS-B data. They do not send the start and stop times for individual events.

Since we don't have the actual time of the TFR we draw them as orange on the EFIS map display.


Rob Hickman
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Yes, they show up on Foreflight with Stratus ADS-B. We have been flying 5 times with it. The first time we saw little red circles everywhere on a Sunday, we were really surprised. I also have them all entered as user waypoints in FF too.
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  #22  
Old 10-06-2013, 12:08 PM
AL_O_Dine AL_O_Dine is offline
 
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Location: US
Posts: 39
Default Super Bowl

Pro sports games can go overtime for many reasons. Even the recent Super Bowl had a power outage issue for 30 minutes. There is no way they can give accurate start or end times for events due to many issues that could cause delays in the event times. And many games simply go into overtime.

Maybe the FAA needs to consider allowing satellite tv on the panel so you can verify the game is actually over.
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  #23  
Old 10-06-2013, 04:16 PM
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Ron Lee Ron Lee is offline
 
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ADS-B in...don't have have it

EFIS.....don't have or need it

Game overtime issue. No excuse. Flag the TFR on the TFR website and with FSS and I will deal with overtimes issues.
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  #24  
Old 10-06-2013, 04:44 PM
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N941WR N941WR is offline
 
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Location: SC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Lee View Post
ADS-B in...don't have have it

EFIS.....don't have or need it

Game overtime issue. No excuse. Flag the TFR on the TFR website and with FSS and I will deal with overtimes issues.
Ron,

That's the problem, these are not listed on the TFR website.

Besides, the FAA and TSA said that checking the website is not a valid reason for busting a TFR because the only "official" notification is to call FSS.
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  #25  
Old 10-06-2013, 04:52 PM
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Ron Lee Ron Lee is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N941WR View Post
Ron,

That's the problem, these are not listed on the TFR website.

Besides, the FAA and TSA said that checking the website is not a valid reason for busting a TFR because the only "official" notification is to call FSS.
I did call FSS and the person I talked to did not mention that TFR. I am now confident that I have no realistic way to be informed of this type TFR so despite my best efforts to adhere to the rules, should I violate one it will be unknowingly.
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  #26  
Old 10-06-2013, 05:18 PM
dabney dabney is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: valencia, ca
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Default Violating a sporting event TFR

If you "unknowingly" violated a specified sporting event TFR, file a NASA report.

The FAA does not care if you did not realize there was a qualifying event at a stadium.

These stadium TFR's for certain specified events are ridiculous but until the DHS is willing to remove them, pilots will possibly suffer enforcement action if they violate one.

I know from first hand experience of a pilot from out of the area flying into Santa Monica (SMO) over downtown LA that was unaware of a LA Dodger game and unknowingly violated the Dodger Stadium TFR. I do know the LAPD was asked to interview the pilot and that information was turned into the FAA. I do not know the outcome however.

The TFR's do nothing to enhance security around these events. As already pointed out, how can a pilot know when the dang event ends and then add one hour to that. The only solution for now is always stay above 3000' AGL if you don't know where the stadiums are and/or whether there is a qualifying event in progress.

Here is an example to show you how absurd these TFR's are. Let's say you have a Dodger vs Giants game at Dodger stadium and only 10,000 people showed up at the game. It is still a TFR. The next night the Rollings Stones are performing in Dodger Stadium and there are 50,000 people. NO TFR!

Pardon my examples, they not be realistic but you get the point.
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Last edited by dabney : 10-06-2013 at 05:21 PM. Reason: spelling errors
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  #27  
Old 10-06-2013, 06:17 PM
YoBubba YoBubba is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: S. Jersey
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TFRs were created by the Patriot Act. Most controllers disliked the TFRs. I never knew a controller who liked them. I never saw a controller track or go after someone who busted one. They're ridiculous and someone with no common sense created them.

Butch
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  #28  
Old 10-06-2013, 06:30 PM
David Paule David Paule is offline
 
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Location: Boulder, CO
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Has anyone had any action or official notice of them due to violating a sports TFR? I'm hoping for first-person reports, you yourself, not about a buddy or the guy down the ramp.

Just trying to get an idea of the impact on the community.

Dave
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  #29  
Old 10-06-2013, 09:34 PM
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RWoodard RWoodard is offline
 
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A client of mine called me shortly after he violated a stadium TFR in the Denver area. ATC had him dead to rights if they wanted to prosecute. He called and requested flight following while in the process of violating the TFR. They gave him a discrete transponder code and proceeded to radar identify him with an IDENT. They then suggested he vacate the TFR. He was given a number to call after landing. He called and admitted to being the pilot flying Nxxxx and apologized for violating the TFR.

Then he called me...

I helped him file a NASA form and explained what he should do when he received the letter of investigation. It's now been 18+ months and we've never heard a word.

I would think that if somebody were of a mind to prosecute the violation of a stadium TFR this would have been an easy case. He did almost everything he could to help the FAA make a case against him.

Just one data point.
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  #30  
Old 10-07-2013, 04:01 AM
smiller smiller is offline
 
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Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
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Default It's in the NTAP

The stadium NOTAM, Disneyland/Disneyworld NOTAMs, etc. are clearly described on pages 238 and 239 (1-GN-13 and -14) of the 543-page Notices to Airmen Publication (NTAP), the contents of which every pilot -- yes, each one of us -- becomes familiar with prior to each flight, in accordance with 14 CFR 91.103, right? ;-)

The NTAP is updated every 28 days and is available as a PDF or in HTML format at http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/notices/.

If you have an iPad with ForeFlight, you can add the NTAP to the "Documents" section of ForeFlight and it is automatically updated every 28 days when you download your chart updates. ForeFlight Documents has a "search" feature so it's pretty easy to pull up the NOTAMs related to the airport(s) involved with your flight. Check the General NOTAMs for anything new if you haven't flown in a while. (I don't know about the other EFB products; I just happen to use ForeFlight myself.)

NOTAMs that are included in briefings eventually make their way into the NTAP after a certain period of time, at which point they may be removed from the briefings! Once in the NTAP, FSS will *not* tell you about them unless you specifically ask for them. And in any case, FSS has no idea about event schedules or when a stadium TFR is active, and you can't rely on ATC for that information either. Doncha just love it?

And now a little story. A buddy and I were flying up along Chicago/Lake Michigan a few years ago in a G-1000 equipped airplane that had an XM/WX subscription. Before the flight, we got a briefing over the phone from FSS. During the flight, we got flight following from Chicago Approach. Nobody mentioned any TFRs. As we approached Soldier Field from the south, the G-1000 displayed a TFR around it .. and we were headed right toward it (with ATC approval to fly up the coastline there)! If I remember correctly, the XM/WX service actually provided game information and estimated times that the TFR would be active. I understand ADS-B (or is it the EFIS providers like Advanced Flight Systems?) plot stadium TFRs but they're just always there -- no game or "valid time" information.

P.S.: I guess an armchair lawyer could argue whether 14 CFR 91.103 really requires one to become familiar with the NTAP, since the NTAP is not listed in the "must include" section of that paragraph. But I think most would agree that pilots should be familiar with the NTAP, even if most of us probably are not!
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Last edited by smiller : 10-07-2013 at 04:11 AM. Reason: 14 CFR 91.103 interpretation & "all available information"
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