AD, Service Bulletin, and the feedback loop

[grubbat]

With the recent tragic events that have occurred within the VAF community, I have found myself thinking about the process of sharing information among the RV community and how it is disseminated. Specifically as it pertains safety whether it be structural or otherwise. While the RV basic designs has been around for a couple of decades now, it is still relatively new and over time we will learn about potential maintenance areas through Service Bulletins from Vans on their website, through information sharing here on VAF, through word of mouth, or maybe from some other venue. Unfortunately, a primary catalyst for this is going to be more tragic events in the future involving our fellow RV friends.

So, how does this process actually work? In the certified world, the FAA will issue an AD or SB once all information is gathered, analyzed, and a determination is made. Sometimes this information takes time to release, sometimes the information is off the mark, but for the most part it has been a process that has been unchanged for several years.

Is there a better way? Can the RV community improve upon this process and be a model for the experimental side of the aircraft world? Is there a way to improve the process of sharing information and provide it in a faster more efficient manner?

It is pretty obvious that the experiential are leading the way for the latest technology side of flying. A lot of the "certified" folks just dream of being able to have the stuff the experimental have. I believe that we have an opportunity to make changes to the information sharing process that will result in a more efficient flow and possibly be a model for the whole industry.

When I say improve the process, I am not talking about speculation, pointing fingers, or so forth.

For example, you just bought a RV-9. You have to do an annual (conditional) and so where do you go for information? Of course, Van's has a list of SB. Is that all you do? What about things that are not worthy of a SB but may be something that you need to be aware of? Do you go through all the RV-9 archives? Case in point is the RV9a steps. Does folks know that those things are prone to crack? Is there a SB on that? Nope. Is it important? Maybe to someone. Is it structural? Nope. Or how about the eyebolts on the elevator? Mr Paul Dye found some things on his RV-8 this past weekend that were eye openers. Did you see his post? If not, why not? In short, things that are loose that should be tight is not good. How does this information get to you?

I am not criticizing. I am a process improvement guy by trade and I know that information sharing can be improved. Even if we can't change the time it takes NTSB to release it findings on accidents, we can improve other information.

FYI, I don't have the answers, but I know that collectively, we have an opportunity to improve and lead the industry. I love my RV. I just don't want to learn about how to maintain it the way we always have in the past. Remember, insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result....

Can we improve the process?

[Low Pass]

How much better can it get than this for communicating issues and floating potential corrections?! You have very good information flowing on almost a real-time basis regarding the basic facts of many of these accidents, and many non-accidents/issues, right here and on other similar boards.

As for the NTSB, sure, they have done great things and have a purpose in the big picture. But I am darn sure not waiting on their official findings to collect information presented here and using my brain to manage the risk of operating my plane.

This network of pilots and builders hearing, discussing and acting on issues is far better in quality and in timing than that provided by our current federally controlled world.

Good answers to difficult questions don't have to be complex.

[N941WR]

Originally Posted by grubbat

...For example, you just bought a RV-9. You have to do an annual (conditional) and so where do you go for information? ...

You go to Van's.

Whenever there is a service bulletin, notice, or whatever on one of their aircraft designs, they post it on their website.

Every year, while doing the condition inspection, simply look at their site and make sure you have reviewed the list.

[az_gila]

Originally Posted by Low Pass

How much better can it get than this for communicating issues and floating potential corrections?! You have very good information flowing on almost a real-time basis regarding the basic facts of many of these accidents, and many non-accidents/issues, right here and on other similar boards.

As for the NTSB, sure, they have done great things and have a purpose in the big picture. But I am darn sure not waiting on their official findings to collect information presented here and using my brain to manage the risk of operating my plane.

This network of pilots and builders hearing, discussing and acting on issues is far better in quality and in timing than that provided by our current federally controlled world.

Good answers to difficult questions don't have to be complex.

Unfortunately a lot of RV owners, especially those non-builders who bought flying RVs, do not follow VAF to the extent you suggest....

As an example, we are still hearing about RV-6s that exist without the rudder pedal weld reinforcement modification mandated by Vans many years ago. When it crops up, it is usually a case of "I didn't know" not a case of willful neglect.

[grubbat]

Researching Van's site for SB is the first step. However, there are going to be items that come up that Van's may either choose not to list as a SB or the time to make it a SB may take some time. Today is a great example of folks looking for items and actually finding some things. However, you won't find these items in SB for a while.

Yes, VAF is a great resource for information and its occurring right now,.. if you read all the posts. Once this tragic news passes and some time goes by, the motivation to research all the post and read all the enormous information out there from our fellow RV owners is daunting.

Could this information sharing process be organized better? Would that improve the communication? Again, I am not criticizing. I am just using this terrible situation as a catalyst to think outside the box and improve how we find and share information.

Kevin found some things on his airplane in one post. Paul found something in his post. Another found something in another post. Nevertheless, this process will continue over the next several weeks then the intensity will diminish. One thought that I had that I would like to offer is the ongoing maintenance area. Maybe that area could have subcategories for each of the major airframe groups. Elevators, Rudders, tailwheels, wings, flaps, major structures, minor structures, and so forth. I don't know if this would work but it seems that there ought to be a way to share infomation not only for those currently reading this, but for the future RV pilots and owners and potential owners.

Again, just thinking about how to make things better in light of a very difficult past couple of weeks here.
cj

[Sam Buchanan]

Originally Posted by grubbat

Kevin found some things on his airplane in one post. Paul found something in his post. Another found something in another post. Nevertheless, this process will continue over the next several weeks then the intensity will diminish.

At the risk of sounding insensitive, the items that you are referencing are all part of comprehensive maintenance. Nothing has been mentioned that should not be found during a thorough condition inspection.

We are responsible for maintaining our aircraft to the highest order. Unfortunately, it is easy to get complacent with a reliably performing aircraft and our intensity of maintenance starts to wane. It takes an accident to shake us and return us to the level of attention we should have all the time.

This is our our responsibility as aircraft owners to maintain at a high level, not Vans's.

[flyboy1963]

......someone said that we have become a bit complacent because the design is/are well wrung out. Serious problems show up as an SB by Van's.

Just a reminder that Van's is a HUGE anomaly in the kit plane world! 99% of all the kit startups that have ever existed....are gone in 3-5 years. ( W.A.G!)

I think it's a great idea to create an archive and reference base of some type, especially for 'maintenance items' that never become official SB's.
VAF is great, but participation is far from 100%.

Eventually, pretty much all A-B planes end up being owned by someone other than the builder...and it becomes even more important.
Yes, an A&P should catch all the issues at annual or 100 hour time, but this is not the norm; I personally do my own inspections unless I am tackling a major change ( engine, avionics, etc.) and a good chunk of owners are the same. Not lazy or stoopid, just typical pilots.

[380mxc]

Sam is correct about comprehensive maintenance. The key word comprehensive.
You can?t have comprehensive maintenance without updating you knowledge base.
There are model specific issues that could be addressed with a (BSSB) builder suggested service bulletin.
Bulletins could then be rated +1 if it?s a good idea if it doesn't get an x number of +1?s delete it
It is also important we have builder suggested service bulletins because we all my use a different products in our systems.
A good example would be the G switch that was added to the smoke system. That would be a great (BSSB) that is specific to our Van?s Aircraft but not a Van?s option.
NASCAR stepped up their game we can to.

[grubbat]

Exactly what i was thinging about. You guys have it spot on.

I was a bit apprehensive about posting because I didnt know if I could describe the process change ideas without ticking folks off. I agree with Sam and I am a ~25yr A&P guy who is comfortable with the present Way but at the same time I think the RV folks are capable of taking the experiential information process up a notch and possibly be the benchmark for general aviation, both experimental and certified.

Those who are reading, please feel free to share ideas. I would be very interested to see what the collective team of the RV nation can come up.

At some point, maybe some of the ideas will be such that those folks in position to facilitate such changes may deem it worthwhile to incorporate some of them. If so, we all win.
Cj

[N941WR]

One of the major problems with putting out AD like letters on homebuilts, even RV's is that each one is built slightly differently.

For example, although Van's states rather clearly in the directions that all the holes are to be match drilled and deburred, not everyone does that. Some builders have gone right to dimple.

Let us say that the FAA/NTSB investigates five accidents and just by chance, all five builders didn't match drill and deburr the holes prior to dimpling. Now the investigation happens to find a number of stress cracks around some rivets, they can only assume the builder followed the instructions to the letter and issues a recommendation based on their findings.

If we were dealing with factory built planes, those findings might hold up but since each and everyone of our planes are built to a different standard, any findings/suggestions may not hold up across the entire fleet.