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  #11  
Old 09-21-2013, 03:08 PM
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rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az_gila View Post
an inspection before each flight is still a valuable safety feature.
I never said it wasn't...

So, it appears to me that you misunderstood the point I was try to make (maybe my fault the with way I wrote it), so I wont both with it anymore.

I will let you explain to the OP that he shouldn't buy any RV because it is not possible to inspect the entire engine during a preflight
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Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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  #12  
Old 09-21-2013, 03:38 PM
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Sam Buchanan Sam Buchanan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex Bonanza Bucko View Post
I once had a brand new (17 hours of Ferry time only) Cessna Turbo 206 lose the following on a flight from KLVK (San Francisco) to KOSH: 30 gallons of gas out of the port wing tank due to no O ring; the XPNDR on climb out in IFR (fell out of the rack); the turn gyro on approach to KMKC (defective); the artificial horizon on approach to KRFD (not due to vacuum failure and defective); the #2 Nav enroute; the #1Com enroute and the O2 system just as I got to altitude at 12000 in IFR out of KOGD. Then to make my full day the engine quit on the runway at KRNO where we stopped for a potty break....the failure was due to a clevis coming loose on the throttle at the engine. Trust...or don't trust....but verify!! :-)
We Rvers never let our planes get in such decrepit condition....especially if we built it!

It's the difference between a taxicab that came of an assembly line and a lovingly maintained show car.
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Last edited by Sam Buchanan : 09-21-2013 at 03:41 PM.
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  #13  
Old 09-21-2013, 07:00 PM
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Bill_H Bill_H is offline
 
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Specific answer. Six screws at the front of the cowl. Two more screws holding the left and right longitudinal pins which you easily pull out and reinsert. Two more screws holding a small plate that secures the transverse pins. Removing/re-inserting one of those pins is a bit tougher because it is more curved, but not that bad.

I'd like to see a youtube of doing this in two minutes though! I wipe the pins clean and lube them before reinserting. And you have to put the top cowl down carefully somewhere, towel,on the wing maybe if in the hangar. It is very light and can low around.

More like 5 minutes to take off and the same to put back, with a power screwdriver and boelube on the screws.
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  #14  
Old 09-21-2013, 07:27 PM
NASA515 NASA515 is offline
 
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This is an instant replay of this previous thread

http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...412#post754412

with the same protagonists.

Coming off a Bonanza, you'll find the engine inspectability far inferior. Coming off a Cherokee - same thoughts. Mechs used to brag they could do a Cherokee FW Fwd Annual just through the open cowl. Two Dzus per side. Open and close faster than you can sneeze.

I've gotten pretty good at pulling the top cowl; bottom cowl is still a two man operation. Still wish there was a fore-aft support beam with piano hinges that allowed you to pop the cowls open.

Bottom Line: Frequent looking is good; less frequent looking is bad. Anything rationalizing the less than optimum cowl situation is....well, just rationalizing.

Bob Bogash
N737G
Second oil change coming Monday - all cowls off. Detailed FW Fwd inspection planned.
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  #15  
Old 09-21-2013, 08:32 PM
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Sam Buchanan Sam Buchanan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NASA515 View Post
Second oil change coming Monday - all cowls off. Detailed FW Fwd inspection planned.
Absolutely. Any oil change should be an opportunity to give the engine compartment the same attention it would receive during a condition inspection.
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  #16  
Old 09-21-2013, 09:38 PM
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rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NASA515 View Post
This is an instant replay of this previous thread

http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...412#post754412

with the same protagonists.

Anything rationalizing the less than optimum cowl situation is....well, just rationalizing.
And what some people call rationalizing, other people call being realistic.

All of the RV's are an engineering compromise; balancing cost, complexity (the customer has to be able to build/assemble it), and weight, against the perceived value of doing it differently. I wont argue that access couldn't have been made better. It could. But it would impact all of the factors I already mentioned.

Selling kit airplanes is a business, competing against other players in a free market. Evaluating the merits of a particular design should compare it to the entire market, not just a few examples that can be found on the internet. Compared to the entire general aviation fleet, I don't think RV's are any better or worse than the average as far as inspectability of the engine compartment during preflight. Sure, better examples can be found. I could probably also find worse examples.

The bottom line is that the design is as it is for very specific reasons.
If people choose, steps can be taken to greatly mitigate any risk involved with the reduced level of inspectability. If that feature is of high importance to someone, then maybe an RV is not the best choice for them.

Post is not a responce directed to you Bob... It is an attempt to explain to the 1000's of lurkers on VAF why RV cowls are the way they are, so call it rationalizing if you want... I call it realistic engineering.

Case in point...
Some of the most vocal rants about some aspects of the RV-12 come from the same people that rave about the handling qualities, performance, low empty weight, and great useful load. Those great attributes all require that hard engineering decisions be made, and the cowl design is definitely one of them.
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Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.

Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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  #17  
Old 09-22-2013, 07:58 AM
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bhassel bhassel is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NASA515 View Post
... Still wish there was a fore-aft support beam with piano hinges that allowed you to pop the cowls open...

Bob Bogash
N737G
Second oil change coming Monday - all cowls off. Detailed FW Fwd inspection planned.
Sounds like a great mod to me!

Getting rid of the piano hinges on the cowling sides would help that process...

Bob
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  #18  
Old 09-22-2013, 09:54 AM
Ex Bonanza Bucko Ex Bonanza Bucko is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan View Post
We Rvers never let our planes get in such decrepit condition....especially if we built it!

It's the difference between a taxicab that came of an assembly line and a lovingly maintained show car.
Hey Sam:
Read the message again. I said it was a BRAND NEW C-206 with 17 Ferry Hours on it. I took delivery from the DEALER and flew it to OSH and back. All those failures had nothing to do with "letting our planes get in such a decrepit condition"....the "condition" was BRAND SPANKING NEW!! I don't think any of the problems and failures I had on the trip could have been discovered by a full preflight.....well, maybe the missing O ring.
But I think any pilot would think he was in a decent and well maintained airplane outside the dealer's show room.



EBB:-(
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  #19  
Old 09-22-2013, 10:41 AM
tfarrell839 tfarrell839 is offline
 
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Location: Canby, OR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NASA515 View Post
This is an instant replay of this previous thread

http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...412#post754412
Still wish there was a fore-aft support beam with piano hinges that allowed you to pop the cowls open.
We've done a mod like this on a quite a few RV-10's. It changes your pre-flight inspection world completely. We call it a big oil door, but it measures about 2.5ft x3ft and opens in about 20 seconds with camlocs. I am sure it would be a great mod to the RV-12 as well. Here are some pics:

http://www.aircraftersllc.com/hatch_mod.html
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  #20  
Old 09-22-2013, 10:43 AM
Ex Bonanza Bucko Ex Bonanza Bucko is offline
 
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Location: San Diego, California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tfarrell839 View Post
We've done a mod like this on a quite a few RV-10's. It changes your pre-flight inspection world completely. We call it a big oil door, but it measures about 2.5ft x3ft and opens in about 20 seconds with camlocs. I am sure it would be a great mod to the RV-12 as well. Here are some pics:

http://www.aircraftersllc.com/hatch_mod.html
Tim:
That is super! Thanks for that.

EBB
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