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09-21-2013, 08:33 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 291
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Getting a good look at the engine
How do you remove the cowl on and RV12 to get a good look at the engine in preflight? I'd love to see a picture/video of that.
EBB
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09-21-2013, 08:42 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 1,647
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It's a good question and I honestly don't have a good answer. It's not too difficult but it's not that quick either. On the other hand, my preflight check on the 172 doesn't include pulling the cowl, so I don't see why the 12 should be any different.
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rgmwa
RV-12LR 912ULS
120346
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09-21-2013, 09:18 AM
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been here awhile
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 4,301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex Bonanza Bucko
How do you remove the cowl on and RV12 to get a good look at the engine in preflight? I'd love to see a picture/video of that.
EBB
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Non of the RVs have cowls designed to open or be removed for pre-flight inspection.
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09-21-2013, 10:05 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,035
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I can remove or replace a (well fitted) top cowl on an RV-12 in about 2 minutes, but as already stated, few people do that for a pre-flight inspection.
Many of us are used to certificated aircraft that have cowls that easily open.
I reality, for most (I didn't say all) of those airplanes, if you evaluate what you are really able to inspect and see, it is not all that much. Unless it is important to you to check the brake fluid level (I just look for a puddle under the main wheels) or something else simple like that. If you don't believe me, ask an experienced mechanic how many of the problems he finds during FWF inspections, would have been detected without removing the entire cowl.
The context of this question is exactly why I say that oil quick drains should not be used to make for an easy oil change on RV's (or any airplane for that matter). Conscientious maintainers, pull the entire cowl and do a though inspection of the entire FWF while the oil is draining. An oil quick drain should only be used to simplify the process.
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.
Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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09-21-2013, 10:59 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002
I can remove or replace a (well fitted) top cowl on an RV-12 in about 2 minutes, but as already stated, few people do that for a pre-flight inspection.
Many of us are used to certificated aircraft that have cowls that easily open.
I reality, for most (I didn't say all) of those airplanes, if you evaluate what you are really able to inspect and see, it is not all that much. Unless it is important to you to check the brake fluid level (I just look for a puddle under the main wheels) or something else simple like that. If you don't believe me, ask an experienced mechanic how many of the problems he finds during FWF inspections, would have been detected without removing the entire cowl.
The context of this question is exactly why I say that oil quick drains should not be used to make for an easy oil change on RV's (or any airplane for that matter). Conscientious maintainers, pull the entire cowl and do a though inspection of the entire FWF while the oil is draining. An oil quick drain should only be used to simplify the process.
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Thanks for the input. I've read on the net that it's a good idea for a good inspection of a Rotax engine to be made pretty frequently to look for coolant and fuel leaks. I'm an old CFI and I've owned and loved 7 airplanes....restored two antiques. I'm used to a "Trust but verify" approach to any airplane and I certainly like to get a good look at the engine--all of it--- at least once every couple of flights.
I once had a brand new (17 hours of Ferry time only) Cessna Turbo 206 lose the following on a flight from KLVK (San Francisco) to KOSH: 30 gallons of gas out of the port wing tank due to no O ring; the XPNDR on climb out in IFR (fell out of the rack); the turn gyro on approach to KMKC (defective); the artificial horizon on approach to KRFD (not due to vacuum failure and defective); the #2 Nav enroute; the #1Com enroute and the O2 system just as I got to altitude at 12000 in IFR out of KOGD. Then to make my full day the engine quit on the runway at KRNO where we stopped for a potty break....the failure was due to a clevis coming loose on the throttle at the engine. Trust...or don't trust....but verify!! :-)
It was a good airplane after some heavy duty maintenance on new stuff installed and inspected by 1975 type "labor" at the factory all of whom must have been at least A&Ps in waiting.
EBB
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09-21-2013, 11:21 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
Posts: 10,011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002
....
Many of us are used to certificated aircraft that have cowls that easily open.
I reality, for most (I didn't say all) of those airplanes, if you evaluate what you are really able to inspect and see, it is not all that much. Unless it is important to you to check the brake fluid level (I just look for a puddle under the main wheels) or something else simple like that. If you don't believe me, ask an experienced mechanic how many of the problems he finds during FWF inspections, would have been detected without removing the entire cowl.
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I think the real question should be -
"How many aircraft have been taken to that experienced mechanic after the pilot found something wrong in the engine compartment during a pre-flight?"
I personally have found oil leaks, baffle material problems, a broken bolt on an oil cooler mount and an exhaust support rod broken during pre-flights. I'm sure the VAF members with many more hours than me have found much more when flying certified aircraft with more engine visibility.
__________________
Gil Alexander
EAA Technical Counselor, Airframe Mechanic
Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
RV-6A N61GX - finally flying
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ
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09-21-2013, 11:45 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sonoma County
Posts: 3,821
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex Bonanza Bucko
I once had a brand new (17 hours of Ferry time only) Cessna Turbo 206 lose the following on a flight from KLVK (San Francisco) to KOSH: 30 gallons of gas out of the port wing tank due to no O ring; the XPNDR on climb out in IFR (fell out of the rack); the turn gyro on approach to KMKC (defective); the artificial horizon on approach to KRFD (not due to vacuum failure and defective); the #2 Nav enroute; the #1Com enroute and the O2 system just as I got to altitude at 12000 in IFR out of KOGD. Then to make my full day the engine quit on the runway at KRNO where we stopped for a potty break....the failure was due to a clevis coming loose on the throttle at the engine. Trust...or don't trust....but verify!! :-)
It was a good airplane after some heavy duty maintenance on new stuff installed and inspected by 1975 type "labor" at the factory all of whom must have been at least A&Ps in waiting.
EBB
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And to top it off your car was parked at Livermore........... 
__________________
VAF #897 Warren Moretti
2019 =VAF= Dues PAID
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09-21-2013, 12:31 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex Bonanza Bucko
Thanks for the input. I've read on the net that it's a good idea for a good inspection of a Rotax engine to be made pretty frequently to look for coolant and fuel leaks. Then to make my full day the engine quit on the runway at KRNO where we stopped for a potty break....the failure was due to a clevis coming loose on the throttle at the engine. Trust...or don't trust....but verify!! :-)
EBB
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I don't think it is any more important to inspect a Rotax than it is a Cont. or Lyc. True, there are some things specific to the Rotax, that aren't there on the others, but they each have the potential for specific problems.
I think any conscientious pilot wants to inspect as well as possible but the reality is you can't inspect everything. There are very few problems that can crop up in 25 or 50 hrs between oil changes, that would cause a serious problem. If people take the time to look everything over real well while the cowl is off, the likelihood of a serious problem occurring is extremely remote.
The best thing any pilot can do for safety is always fly the same airplane and become intimately familiar with that airplane. That is one of the things that makes homebuilts so popular with a lot of pilots.... they have personal knowledge of every part of the airplane, and because they are personally inspecting and maintaining it, they are trusting no one.
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.
Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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09-21-2013, 12:35 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az_gila
I think the real question should be -
"How many aircraft have been taken to that experienced mechanic after the pilot found something wrong in the engine compartment during a pre-flight?"
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You quoted my post Gil, but I haven't the foggiest idea what this question means.
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.
Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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09-21-2013, 02:08 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
Posts: 10,011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002
You quoted my post Gil, but I haven't the foggiest idea what this question means.
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Your words -
Many of us are used to certificated aircraft that have cowls that easily open.
I reality, for most (I didn't say all) of those airplanes, if you evaluate what you are really able to inspect and see, it is not all that much. Unless it is important to you to check the brake fluid level (I just look for a puddle under the main wheels) or something else simple like that. If you don't believe me, ask an experienced mechanic how many of the problems he finds during FWF inspections, would have been detected without removing the entire cowl.
Comparing the ability for a pilot to inspect an engine compartment as part of a pre-flight vs. your comment that a mechanic can't do a complete FWF inspection from just an open top cowl.
Even if you as a pilot can't inspect a lot "..you are really able to inspect and see, it is not all that much..." - an inspection before each flight is still a valuable safety feature. The mechanic does not see the engine compartment as often as a pilot with a plane that has an easy access top cowling.
A look around inside the engine compartment at a more frequent schedule than a 50 hr oil change is always a good thing.
A couple of the problems I spotted at pre-flight - a broken bolt on an oil cooler mount and an exhaust support rod broken - certainly could have become serious problems if left for 25 to 50 hours.
__________________
Gil Alexander
EAA Technical Counselor, Airframe Mechanic
Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
RV-6A N61GX - finally flying
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ
Last edited by az_gila : 09-21-2013 at 02:12 PM.
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