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09-20-2013, 03:39 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 4,435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grezdlitn
Most of the Continentals I'm familiar with have keel mounts akin to the Beech Bonanza. To adapt a keel to Vans traditional firewall construction is probably too expensive and time consuming.
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Shouldn't be. My Cessna 180 has a keel-mounted (more properly termed a bed-mount, I think) engine and a conventional engine mount connection to the firewall.
There's no requirement that it be made like a Bonanzas, unless it's for a Bonanza.
Dave
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09-20-2013, 03:42 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Paris, Tx
Posts: 93
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Well, most of these answers sound like decent reasons of why Continentals usually aren't seen on RV's, I'm just a believer that more choices are better than fewer choices, most of the time.
Maybe I'm using the wrong plane so let's compare a closer set of engines.
Vans says that the 9A flies very well on the 118hp Lycoming O-235 so other than the mount, it seems that a 125hp Continental O-240 would be a potentially decent choice given that the weights are similar.
What say ye........?
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09-20-2013, 03:45 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Paris, Tx
Posts: 93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaffer62
That is for the powerplant kit. Includes propeller and firewall forward necessities
Per Vans
Powerplant Kit:contains new Rotax 912ULS engine,engine installation kit and a Sensenichcomposite ground adjustable propeller
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Fair enough, I was thinking it was just the engine.
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09-20-2013, 06:19 PM
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pocahontas MS
Posts: 3,884
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Too heavy?
Continental IO-360:
General characteristics
Type: 6-cylinder, fuel injected, horizontally opposed, piston engine
Bore: 4.438 (112 mm)
Stroke: 3.875 (98 mm)
Displacement: 360 in? (5.90 L)
Dry weight: 294 lb (133 kg)
Performance
Power output: 195 hp (145 kW) at 2,800 rpm continuous, 210 hp (157 kW) at 2,800 rpm for take-off
Compression ratio: 8.5:1
Power-to-weight ratio: 0.71 hp/lb
Having 6 instead of 4 cylinders is no guarantee that the engine will be heavier. (It's actually likely that it will be lighter at the same performance level; ask a structural engineer or an F1 race car engine guy why.)
Bigger factors for most would likely be the ~50% higher overhaul cost for cylinders and the shorter TBO (~1500-1600 hrs for the Continental), and the monster: you can't plug & play with the Continental (no support from Van's).
Ask a few Globe/Temco Swift drivers which they prefer. (And remember, it was designed for an 85 HP engine).
I can tell you that I've co-owned a Lyc IO-360 powered swift, & flown a Cont IO-360 powered Swift, & the Continental was significantly more impressive on takeoff. And it was...smooooooothhhhh. And then there's that sound. One of my neighbors has a Cont. Swift with 6>1 exhaust, and it's hard to describe how good it sounds compared to a 4cyl Lyc. If I were using a conventional a/c engine on my -7, I would give the Cont. serious consideration. But I do have a neighbor who's both a structural engineer and an accomplished welder. :-)
If you get an honest answer from Van's it will almost certainly be that they don't like them because they aren't familiar with them & they don't want to fool with with supporting a 2nd (now 3rd) engine line. Ask yourself if the -12 would have a Rotax if there was a Lyc that could be forced into working. (I'm pretty sure I know the answer).
Charlie
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09-20-2013, 06:26 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 4,219
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Van's struck an OEM deal with Lycoming years ago. I'm sure they get great pricing on Lycomings, and would bet that the Lycoming deal wouldn't be as favorable if Van's went away from being an exclusive Lycoming "house".
Since Lycoming doesn't have a product that competes with the Rotax, that exception probably doesn't bother them.
__________________
Kyle Boatright
Marietta, GA
2001 RV-6 N46KB
2019(?) RV-10
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09-20-2013, 06:27 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 1,095
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostRider32
Where do you see that? Vans own price list shows $27,885 for a 912 uls.
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Lockwood aviation. They're in Florida, I think.
__________________
Sonny W
Boise, Idaho
RV-7A Flying!
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09-20-2013, 06:32 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Paris, Tx
Posts: 93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rv7charlie
Continental IO-360:
General characteristics
Type: 6-cylinder, fuel injected, horizontally opposed, piston engine
Bore: 4.438 (112 mm)
Stroke: 3.875 (98 mm)
Displacement: 360 in? (5.90 L)
Dry weight: 294 lb (133 kg)
Performance
Power output: 195 hp (145 kW) at 2,800 rpm continuous, 210 hp (157 kW) at 2,800 rpm for take-off
Compression ratio: 8.5:1
Power-to-weight ratio: 0.71 hp/lb
Having 6 instead of 4 cylinders is no guarantee that the engine will be heavier. (It's actually likely that it will be lighter at the same performance level; ask a structural engineer or an F1 race car engine guy why.)
Bigger factors for most would likely be the ~50% higher overhaul cost for cylinders and the shorter TBO (~1500-1600 hrs for the Continental), and the monster: you can't plug & play with the Continental (no support from Van's).
Ask a few Globe/Temco Swift drivers which they prefer. (And remember, it was designed for an 85 HP engine).
I can tell you that I've co-owned a Lyc IO-360 powered swift, & flown a Cont IO-360 powered Swift, & the Continental was significantly more impressive on takeoff. And it was...smooooooothhhhh. And then there's that sound. One of my neighbors has a Cont. Swift with 6>1 exhaust, and it's hard to describe how good it sounds compared to a 4cyl Lyc. If I were using a conventional a/c engine on my -7, I would give the Cont. serious consideration. But I do have a neighbor who's both a structural engineer and an accomplished welder. :-)
If you get an honest answer from Van's it will almost certainly be that they don't like them because they aren't familiar with them & they don't want to fool with with supporting a 2nd (now 3rd) engine line. Ask yourself if the -12 would have a Rotax if there was a Lyc that could be forced into working. (I'm pretty sure I know the answer).
Charlie
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Some very good points. I didn't realize that the Cont. IO-360 had a TBO of 1600 hours.
There are definately some differences between the 2 manufacturers and there may not be a lot of interchangeability in some most models but it is interesting that the Cont. IO-240 and the Lycoming IO-235 "appear" to be nearly interchangable for the 9 or 9A.
I can see how Van's would want to keep it within one engine line as much as possible to keep it as simple as possible.
It would be cool to see someone put a IO-240 on a 9A and compare the performance to the IO-235.
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09-21-2013, 05:28 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Glendale, AZ
Posts: 256
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Some are higher TBO
The IO-360-ES, for example, has a 2000 hour TBO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostRider32
Some very good points. I didn't realize that the Cont. IO-360 had a TBO of 1600 hours.
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__________________
Roger Whittier
RV7A Quick Build, Tip Up
N1MY Reserved - Canopy finished - Wings mated, Engine hung, electrical 95%
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09-21-2013, 07:32 AM
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pocahontas MS
Posts: 3,884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwhittier
The IO-360-ES, for example, has a 2000 hour TBO.
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I haven't paid much attention to the TBO numbers in a long time.
This is excellent news, & even more reason to consider a Cont., if someone is willing to do the extra work on the motor mount.
Charlie
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09-21-2013, 07:58 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Central IL
Posts: 5,516
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Being a numbers game, the Conti probably fares well, but I suspect the choice was the effect of management - Conti management. They made some poor choices in management in the 90's. They were not inclined to sell to the experimental market when I was there, and suspect that could have been another factor for Vans selection. Vans has to rely on good support from vendors and steady support for issues.
Having said all that, a well designed/documented installation for an I-6 would be a very interesting comparison to the standard. W&B, performance, and fuel burn, etc comparisons would be very interesting.
Where are our Conti guys?
__________________
Bill
RV-7
Lord Kelvin:
“I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about,
and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you
cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge
is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind.”
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