Weight a minute...

[rocketbob]

Originally Posted by diamond

I'm not sure we need to be encouraging folks to build RVs for under $30K. While many could do so without compromising safety, I have great concern for those who would cut corners and end up with a dangerous aircraft.

This is exactly the culture that seems pervasive here. That one must have a glass panel, a new engine, etc. I sure as heck don't cut corners, in fact quite the opposite almost to a fault. I could build an A-65 Continental-powered RV via a second or third hand kit, whiskey compass an altimeter, and that would be a huge leap in performance over many popular GA airplanes most fly, and just as safe if not more safe. Safety has nothing to do with how much $$ one spends building an airplane.

[Mike Miller]

Smokyray knows what flies best. He's even talked me into a tailwheel! I'm following his mantra and building my 9 light and cheap. The key is buying used. I bought a used engine and prop combo that he had on his RVX...a light O-320 that included all major firewall forward components. I'll shop around and find good used avionics as well. I don't think I'll get the final cost below $30K...more likely for around $45K, but I will keep it right at around 1000 pounds.

Mike

[flyinmonque]

......but close.
My RV9A came in at 34k with paint and weighed #1081. Not sure you could build one with a 160hp and come in under #1000. Lot's of used parts: Engine, prop, GPS/COM, transponder, ELT, six pack of steam gages, built my own interior.
Engine instruments all Vans steam gages.
Now over 1200 hours of fun and adventure!

[curtis]

Reference my post #19 of this thread. I started my kit in 1993 taking 17+ years to complete with the total airframe cost of $13,300. With the prices of the kits nowdays staying under 30k would be tight and you would be scouring the internet for the low cost of all components.

[BSwayze]

I can't help but throw in a few comments here, too. I'm building a 7A and I can't imagine how one could do it for less than $30K. As someone already pointed out, the kits from Vans now cost over $22K, and I'm talking slow build. And that doesn't include shipping and crating! Perhaps if you pick up a partially completed kit somewhere for a huge discount, and scrounge for used stuff you might come closer. The key is getting lucky with the engine. Have you priced new ones lately? You can spend more on the engine than on the entire kit. They're well over $20K just on the engine. The demand for engines these days makes it hard to find used ones at a bargain. I got very lucky with my engine but still spent well over 5-figures on it. And I'm not finished... I still need an alternator, starter, exhaust system, and lots of other items. Plus a prop, instruments and radios. And nobody has mentioned supplies, or tools... you're going to spend a couple grand on the tools you need, if you're a new builder like I was. Ohhh... and what if you have a big "ooops", like I did when I cracked my first canopy? Yikes, there went a wad. I didn't plan on that.

I'm a working guy like others here, money has always been an issue with me. Nobody wants to save a buck more than me. I have scrounged, bought used stuff, taken advantage of sales whenever and wherever possible, and I have compromised on a number of things. I do everything myself. I drove down to Vans to pick up my kits and didn't even buy the crates. I realize not everyone can do that. When (and if) my plane gets painted, I'll probably do that myself, too. I can't spend $6 or $8 Grand on a paint job. So when I read something like this, I can't help but think, where did I miss it? A finished RV for $30K? Are you kidding me?

Lest anyone think I'm complaining, I'm not. I've never done anything so rewarding in my life! I'm not the fastest builder around, but I am enjoying this journey, and the pride of ownership that comes with doing something this big and this amazing. I have hammered every rivet in this airplane. I have managed to pay cash along the way for everything I've done so far. This is more important to me, than a certain dollar figure. Spreading it out over time. I'd rather take a bit longer and save up for my next purchase, than be tied to payments plus interest. One area I am choosing to spend a bit on is in my panel. If I want the latest glass panel, I'll save up for it and go for it. But it will be single-screen. And VFR. At least for now. I can see it would be fun to fly old-school, with little more than an altimeter, airspeed, and a whiskey compass. But what's your mission? This machine is our freedom vehicle. The getaway vehicle for my wife and I. We've waited all our lives to do a bit of traveling. Long cross-country trips are on our bucket list. I want situational awareness and ease of workload. I want that autopilot. But I scrounged and bought used servos. I'll install and wire my electrical and panel myself, including cutting the panel myself. I don't know how to do any of this, but I'm learning. After all, it saves money!

Now when it comes to saving weight, I'm all on board for that. I have carefully cut every ounce of weight whenever possible. But I don't see how a 7A can come in under 1000 lbs. unless I missed something there, too. The only comment I may make here is this. I hope I'm not stepping on anybody's toes. It occured to me one day while pounding rivets, that this plane will never fly by itself. The pilot is a part of the plane. Always. So why do we weigh just the plane? The weight number that really matters is the weight of the aircraft plus the weight of the pilot. So the quickest way to shave a lot of weight off of the flying aircraft is to look in the mirror. We're not talking ounces here, we're talking many pounds! I wasn't happy with what I saw. I had a gut to lose. That comes right off the gross weight of the flying plane! It was then that I realized the futility of shaving an ounce here and an ounce there, if I didn't also, at the same time, do something about the pilot. I realized the easiest way to lighten up the whole package is to lose my gut! So thanks to this airplane and our future dreams, my wonderful wife has joined me in a new health kick that we're on. Not to cause thread drift, so I won't go into detail. But I lost many pounds off of my gut and she has lost a fair amount herself. And the added benefit of better health is the hope of keeping the medical much longer, since we're both about to enter our 7th decade. Bottom line... I wouldn't be this healthy now if it wasn't for the newfound motivation that came from this wonderful project! Is that thread drift? We are talking about weight here.

So, I am very grateful to Van and his team, for creating these marvelous kits, and to the whole homebuilding community, and VAF. What it has given an ordinary guy like me, is a ticket or pathway to aircraft ownership, and the wonderful lifestyle that aircraft ownership brings to you, by being able to build it myself. If not for kits and homebuilding, the traditional pathway to aviation, that is, buying a finished certified airplane, especially one with this kind of performance, would be completely out of reach for me.

[curtis]

Originally Posted by AlexPeterson

In 2001 ...... If I leave out the engine, prop and instrument panel, it came in at just under $30k.....

I don't understand what all you could do to the basic -6A airframe to double the cost of the kit prices, considering you didn' include the instrument panel or firewall forward. I need to look at my kit parts list, but if I remember correctly I only had 13,300 including shipping in my -6A kit total (had to provide proof to the tax man for sales tax).

[Saber25]

Actually some of the easiest weight savings on sport airplanes can be achieved by pilots not gaining excessive weight by over indulging in caloric intake. The truth of the matter is it would be easier to lose a few personal pounds than to shave more weight from an already light airframe. A lean mean fighting machine deserves that from us.

[AlexPeterson]

Originally Posted by curtis

I don't understand what all you could do to the basic -6A airframe to double the cost of the kit prices, considering you didn' include the instrument panel or firewall forward. I need to look at my kit parts list, but if I remember correctly I only had 13,300 including shipping in my -6A kit total (had to provide proof to the tax man for sales tax).

Well, it did add up to about what I said, give or take (I didn't go look it up, but the numbers are about right). For those who have ALL the receipts, take your total and subtract engine, prop and panel, and report back here. My plane cost me $75k between 93 and 01. Seats were only part made by someone else, perhaps $1200 IIRC. Engine was around 20k, panel 20k-ish, prop/gov 6k or so.

[N941WR]

The price is the challenge, as stated earlier. The weight thing is the same as the extra weight many of us lug around with us.

I my case, budget was an issue and so was weight. When my -9 first flew, it weighed in at 990 lbs, unpainted.

The cost was something else altogether. My original engine (O-290-d2) cost me $3,500 and it had less than 1000 hours TT and zero since major.

Options were plentiful and I focused on putting light accessories in (Catto prop, dual P-mags, light weight starter, etc.) but the major thing was starting the lightest kit Van's makes, a tip-up taildragger.

Other things included A Dynon D100 EFIS and D10 EMS, Garmin 496, DJM center throttle, Andair fuel valve, and more.

While I could have worked the cost down, at the time you couldn't buy used EFIS's and I didn't want steam gauges. The 496 was brand new as were the P-mags.

It comes down to what you want to fly behind. In my case it worked out, I had a delightfully light airplane to fly. Later on I replaced the O-290 with an O-360, the D100 & D10 were replaced by a 10" SkyView, the airplane was painted, installed leather Classic Aero side panels, auto pilot, and a few other goodies. This ballooned the empty weight up to 1068 lbs.

[smokyray]

Originally Posted by N941WR

The price is the challenge, as stated earlier. The weight thing is the same as the extra weight many of us lug around with us.


It comes down to what you want to fly behind. In my case it worked out, I had a delightfully light airplane to fly. Later on I replaced the O-290 with an O-360, the D100 & D10 were replaced by a 10" SkyView, the airplane was painted, installed leather Classic Aero side panels, auto pilot, and a few other goodies. This ballooned the empty weight up to 1068 lbs.

Bill,
Here are Van's answers to the exact line of questions:
http://vimeo.com/14925548

V/R
Smokey