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09-14-2013, 10:30 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: San Diego, Ca
Posts: 431
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RV-10 New Door Design?
Going to throw this one out there. This is something I've been researching for the last couple weeks. While I agree with all the posts about the doors and that proper latching, and checklists will eliminate the problem. I also agree with the thought that an unlatched door shouldn't rip off. We(builders and the power of this forum) have the means to change it if we want. I'm far enough out on my build that there could be a better solution by the time I'm ready. (If not, Sean's plane around latch and sensors will do)
So, couldn't we design a new system? Either forward hinges, or the Cirrus type opening(called Lamborghini doors in the auto industry). A friend of mine built a race car out of an Acura about 12 years ago, and engineered a set of Lamborghini type hinges. Now there are aftermarket bolt on kits. Something like that could be used on the 10.
Just a thought. Maybe we can work together to come up with another door option.
Anyone out there about to be working on doors and want to do some creative engineering?
__________________
John Walker
RV-10 N265WD
"Miss Whiskey Delta"
BPE IO-540, FULL EFII
KMYF, San Diego, Ca.
KEOS, Neosho, MO
Crew Chief
Grove Aero Super Legacy Reno Racer,
twin turbo, IO-540,
full EFII management system!
Race Coordinator STOL Drag coming to Reno, 2019
"so I got that going for me... which is nice."
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09-14-2013, 12:13 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,035
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Nothing wrong with creative engineering... that is what home building and the experimental category is all about.
Just keep in mind that jumping in to modify something that someone else designed can leave you missing a lot of critical details, because of unfamiliarity with some of the design details/requirements (this happens with RV's all teh time).
Example...
- Even though the RV-10 was planned to be a cabin with doors type fuselage, it was a design goal to keep the visibility as good as possible (to maintain good visibility similar to the other RV designs) Most people agree that goal was met.
- To meet that goal, it meant keeping window and door posts as small as possible... and they are.
- The window and door posts are integral parts of the rollover structure, so they are rather massive solid composite laminates. They are the primary roll over structure, which is why builders have always been discouraged from drilling holes in them for sun visors, etc.
My point...
If you are going to do a proper job modifying the door hinge geometry, be prepared to do a full static test of the rollover strength of the new cabin design (this was done with the current design).
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.
Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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09-14-2013, 12:18 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 31
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How about taking a close look at the aerodynamics of the door? Any ideas on how to modify the door in such a way that it would "fly" towards a closed or nearly closed position rather than snapping off? That would save the trouble of modifying the door mounting points.
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Adam Pirkle
Portland, OR
RV-10 planning
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09-14-2013, 12:50 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: West Linn, Oregon
Posts: 1,351
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When I first got started I heard rumors of a company in Bend that was contemplating doing the whole canopy in Carbon Fiber and engineering a new door system. I believe the cost was too high for a single builder, but if there was a minimum order or someone to front the cost and desired to start the market, it was a possibility.
__________________
CharlieWaffles - But you can call me " Mark"
RV-10
N928MT
Flying - AKA Still Tinkering
Build Project Site
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09-14-2013, 01:45 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 554
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I thought about this too when I was first building my doors. I agree that visibility would be compromised with two big hinge points on the forward side of the door posts but it should be doable. Is it worth the time and effort of building this vs. remembering to properly shut your door? I don't think so but it is good to think about better solutions. You would probably have to relocate the pins or add some to the back of the door as well. If anything beefing up the forward posts for hinges would make it stronger for flipping over accidents.
I truly believe the extra time while building the doors is the best scenario.
Stiff door/good bonding of halves
Good fit
Ease of closing and latching
Vans Warning system
__________________
A&P RV-10 Flying 1000+ hours
SuperSTOL Flying 170 hours
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09-14-2013, 03:33 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,516
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As you know from my other posts, I do not want Van to redesign anything on the RV-10 door and in fact I was annoyed at the mandatory latch "patch"
in the middle of the door.
On the other hand, I favor experimentation and would not discourage anyone from trying to come up with a better option.
The visibility in the 10 is phenomenal compared to some of the airplanes that beef up the front post to accommodate the door hinge stresses.
Front hinged doors would most likely require 2 door locks, one to the rear and one on top much like a cherokee.
"Better" would be a compromise at best where an unlatched door may not come off but you now have to be happy with a less than ideal field of view out of the front office and enormous added cost, complexity as well additional weight. All of this to make up for a deficient preflight procedure
which could be cured with very little effort and no money at all.
Something else I wanted to add about my experience loosing a door on a Cessna 182. Granted, it was a Skydiving Cessna with a top hinged exit door
and although I had to take responsibility as the pilot in command it was an overly eager jump master that popped the door to early and at too high an airspeed. No harm done except a dent on the horizontal stabilizer and it happened more than 25 years ago.
The point I would like to make is this. I think the door would actually stay on the 10 with the introduction of a side slip into the open door.
We routinely opened and closed the door even at high speed by side slipping just a little and were able to keep it at any position with varying degrees of side slipping. In perfectly coordinated flight the door would pop open with a giant bang.
I am not willing to give it a try in my own 10 but that is what I would do if my door popped open.
The aerodynamic option might be the best idea I have heard so far and would likely incorporate a wing profile on the inside of the door.
There would be less elbow room, more weight and complexity to accommodate the door lock mechanism.
__________________
Ernst Freitag
RV-8 finished (sold)
RV-10 Flyer 600 plus hours
Running on E10 mogas
Don't believe everything you know.
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09-14-2013, 09:05 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieWaffles
When I first got started I heard rumors of a company in Bend that was contemplating doing the whole canopy in Carbon Fiber and engineering a new door system. I believe the cost was too high for a single builder, but if there was a minimum order or someone to front the cost and desired to start the market, it was a possibility.
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That is a good option to have. I hope to have this by the time i get to the finish kit which will be a few years.
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09-15-2013, 08:10 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 456
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I had posted this exact question about a month ago. But I have since changed my mind on modifications in general.
I am in the market for a -10 (kit or completed). I have looked at a lot of planes and kits, and I have seen some very bad ideas implemented by builders. The sad point is some of the worst mods were done by builders that were A&P's an aero engineers. Some are well documented bad ideas that resulted in changes and AD' on certified planes.
If your thinking of a mod that adds weight, go fly two of the same model at significantly different weight and see how it affects the handling and stall speed. Then think that you will always fly the heavier version with this mod.
So, in the end, I have come back to Van's way of thinking. Build it light.
Keep in mind, any mod you do, no matter how well documented, most likely will result in a significantly lower resale value.
__________________
Michael Delpier
RV6A -O-320, fixed pitch, GRT Sport, 496
RV-10 - working on finish kit
Houston
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09-15-2013, 08:22 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sunman, IN
Posts: 2,189
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"...Keep in mind, any mod you do, no matter how well documented, most likely will result in a significantly lower resale value..."
You should really add IMHO to that statement.
There are numerous mods that will do just the opposite...
__________________
Bob
Aerospace Engineer '88
RV-10
Structure - 90% Done
Cabin Top - Aaarrghhh...
EFII System 32 - Done
297 HP Barrett Hung
ShowPlanes Cowl with Skybolts Fitted - Beautiful
Wiring...
Dues+ Paid 2019,...Thanks DR+
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09-15-2013, 09:39 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Federal Way, Wa
Posts: 264
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Quote:
The point I would like to make is this. I think the door would actually stay on the 10 with the introduction of a side slip into the open door.
We routinely opened and closed the door even at high speed by side slipping just a little and were able to keep it at any position with varying degrees of side slipping. In perfectly coordinated flight the door would pop open with a giant bang.
I am not willing to give it a try in my own 10 but that is what I would do if my door popped open.
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At least in the jump plane, the giant bang was the door hitting the wing, not the empennage. Having opened a lot of jump doors, a pilots reacting with rudder input in time to control the door swing would have to be pretty fast.
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Brice
RV-9A 90897 FLYING
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