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09-02-2013, 10:54 AM
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Super Moderator
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 1,158
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Procedures
Also, great job landing the plane with all the distractions.
Assuming the doors were built correctly and had the proper engagement almost all the issues are procedural. Sounds like in this case you were not completely sure the rear pin was in the fuselage. Could have been outside of the fuselage.
If the RV-10 had retractable gear there would be just as many "landed with the gear up again" threads as there are door lost threads because the root case is the same on most incidents.
With a door light warning there are two places on my checklist you would catch this.
-Verify doors closed, latched and locked (visually inspect all four corners and make sure the latch is down and locked by pulling up on the handle)
-Verify all lights off (I have two lights for low fuel, one master caution hooked to GRT and two door lights, one for each door)
Just like putting the gear down can you imagine how many would land with the gear up if there was no audible scream or "three greens"?
Get those lights on. I know there was at least one that lost the door with the light on. I think he said the sun was hitting it. But still, a checklist would make you stop, cup your hands around the light and verify. I do it everytime.
There may need to be a standard for how the door pins should extend into the fuselage. I have seen some that are scary, with only minimal extension into the door blocks. I have the 90 degree kit from Planearound.com on my -10 and will take a quick video of both sides today at the airport.
Sorry that happened, I know how frustrating it is to have anything like that happen that not only costs money but takes so much time to fix. All we can do is learn from it and improve.
__________________
Scott Schmidt
Salt Lake City, UT
RV-10 N104XP (1280 Hours)
RV-12 N321UT (Sold)
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09-02-2013, 12:17 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,516
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Excellent job handling your door off emergency!
Looking at your pictures it appears that you have a clean break from the rear.
I believe your rear pin was not engaged into any part of the fuselage.
Had your door separated from the top due to a fiberglass failure you would at least show some damage to the pin area front and back. The door would have been flopping around with the pins still engaged and finally come loose after enough flexing outside of the door frame.
I see no damage in those areas and having the rear pin not engaged allows the door to come off without tearing up the bottom end.
I am firmly in the camp of non believers of multiple safety mechanisms.
I have Van's stock door lock, (no center latch), aluminum guides and safety lights as per Vans instructions.
One of the leading causes of engine failures is still fuel starvation despite all the bells and whistles honking at us.
I am not accusing you of anything but the PIC must ensure that both doors are closed and locked.
I do exactly the same
Quote:
With a door light warning there are two places on my checklist you would catch this.
-Verify doors closed, latched and locked (visually inspect all four corners and make sure the latch is down and locked by pulling up on the handle)
-Verify all lights off.
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I deliberately installed the lights front and center outside of the EFIS clutter
to make sure they stand out
I did install a handle on the rear bottom of the door to assist in ensuring positive engagement of the rear pin.

__________________
Ernst Freitag
RV-8 finished (sold)
RV-10 Flyer 600 plus hours
Running on E10 mogas
Don't believe everything you know.
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09-02-2013, 01:05 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 32
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RV-10 DOOR PIN INDICATOR SYSTEM
Should I go with stock Van's Kit or is some other switch or system better?
Gerald
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09-02-2013, 01:28 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,516
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Stock
Stock Van, it's very simple built from off the shelf parts
And very inexpensive.
You'll be up and running in no time.
__________________
Ernst Freitag
RV-8 finished (sold)
RV-10 Flyer 600 plus hours
Running on E10 mogas
Don't believe everything you know.
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09-02-2013, 01:31 PM
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: X35 - Ocala, FL
Posts: 3,679
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002
Sorry Jesse, but this is just not possible on a properly built and installed RV-10 door.
I am not saying that it couldn't happen as a result of how a particular installation was built (pins not properly installed... so that the ramped portion is the only thing engaging fuselage, which would cause them to push in the retracted direction if not restrained). I have tested it in flight myself. A properly installed door will not open on its own just because the latch button is pressed.
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It's hard to say it couldn't happen when it did happen just as I described. I have heard of it on several occasions, and I was sitting at the door that opened once. The forces acting on the door put enough outward pressure on it that the handle rotated to the open position with the roll pin disengaged.
I can't explain it, but I can describe it. It can and did happen on a stock installation. It happened to me, that I know. The door opened about half way at cruise and I was able to grab it fast enough to pull it back down. The guy in the other seat was able to grab the rear handle as in another post and we got the door closed again. Without the rear handle it couldn't have happened.
On another note, I know for a fact that the RV-10 can be flown with the hinges broken and the pins fully engaged. Apparently the forces acting are pulling on the area of the latch and not at the hinges. I have seen one fly that way and know of at least one other that flew that way. I was not flying or directly involved, but I did help fix the door that was flown to me that way.
__________________
Jesse Saint
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09-02-2013, 02:26 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 6,797
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I can see how the forces would want to rotate the door pin mechanism to open IF the beveled part of the pin was making contact with the frame hole. The beveled part should be entirely past the hole.
One thing new builders should do, if using the stock parts, is to disregard the instructions for cutting the piece with the gear teeth in it (I forget, is it called a "rack"?). Cut it in half and get the longest throw possible, to make sure the bevel at the end of the pin is past the door frame.
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09-02-2013, 03:01 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Flagstaff, AZ
Posts: 2,653
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Regarding the indicators, I am discarding the magnets and going with sealed switches ripped from the auto junkyard. They will be positioned to detect if the door is fully closed, not whether the pins are engaged. Of course, if the pins are not engaged, then the door will not be fully closed as the seal will push it away from the frame. Nothing is fool-proof but the switches have a long track record and the wiring is easy.
Regarding the racks, I followed Vans' directions but used the aftermarket angled pins and guides. The pins are set so that they fully engage the aluminum structure when fully extended. When retracted, I had to dish the outboard edge of the guides by about 1/16". This is not a problem as the guides still engage smoothly during latching and I do not depend on them to retain the door; that's why the pins are through the aluminum structure. I thought about following Bob's advice on cutting the racks but I'm using the flush external handles and I didn't want to have to rotate them that far to engage/disengage the pins. It's worth paying attention to, though. It can't be said enough, after all the threads on this, that the pins must travel enough to fully engage the primary structure. Do whatever it takes.
__________________
Patrick Kelley - Flagstaff, AZ
RV-6A N156PK - Flying too much to paint
RV-10 14MX(reserved) - Fuselage on gear
http://www.mykitlog.com/flion/
EAA Technical Counselor #5357
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09-02-2013, 07:33 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flion
Regarding the indicators, I am discarding the magnets and going with sealed switches ripped from the auto junkyard. They will be positioned to detect if the door is fully closed, not whether the pins are engaged. Of course, if the pins are not engaged, then the door will not be fully closed as the seal will push it away from the frame. Nothing is fool-proof but the switches have a long track record and the wiring is easy.
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Which is exactly why magnetic switches were used in the kit supplied warning system... to confirm that pins actually are fully engaged in the cabin frame, not just fully extended.
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.
Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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09-02-2013, 07:36 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse
It's hard to say it couldn't happen when it did happen just as I described. I have heard of it on several occasions, and I was sitting at the door that opened once. The forces acting on the door put enough outward pressure on it that the handle rotated to the open position with the roll pin disengaged.
I can't explain it, but I can describe it. It can and did happen on a stock installation. It happened to me, that I know. The door opened about half way at cruise and I was able to grab it fast enough to pull it back down. The guy in the other seat was able to grab the rear handle as in another post and we got the door closed again. Without the rear handle it couldn't have happened.
On another note, I know for a fact that the RV-10 can be flown with the hinges broken and the pins fully engaged. Apparently the forces acting are pulling on the area of the latch and not at the hinges. I have seen one fly that way and know of at least one other that flew that way. I was not flying or directly involved, but I did help fix the door that was flown to me that way.
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Jesse, I fully respect the experience you have working with a few RV-10's, but I stand by my statement. It can't happen if the door and latching system is installed properly. If you say it happened to you, then it is my opinion that the door latching system was not installed properly on that airplane.
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.
Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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09-02-2013, 07:49 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 4,219
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The bottom of the RV-10 door is relatively close to the upper surface of the wing - a low pressure area. I'm wondering if the suction is sufficient to deform the door and pull shallowly seated pins out? Assuming the door that started this thread was poorly bonded, that door probably flexed more than normal, compounding the situation.
__________________
Kyle Boatright
Marietta, GA
2001 RV-6 N46KB
2019(?) RV-10
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