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08-14-2013, 08:44 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 8I3
Posts: 3,564
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I've seen enough shoddy work from shops that are supposed professionals that I wouldn't ever let someone build one for me.
One example: a very well-known shop that advertises here built an engine for an acquaintance of mine and there was a thin washer that somehow got placed on a cylinder hold down stud and wasn't noticed when the cylinder went on over it. Needless to say that caused some problems a while after the RV-8 it was on started flying.
Engine building is not for everyone but I believe the aircraft builder who can build one not only saves money but they become more knowledgeable in diagnosing failures before they happen.
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Please don't PM me! Email only!
Bob Japundza CFI A&PIA
N9187P PA-24-260B Comanche, flying
N678X F1 Rocket, under const.
N244BJ RV-6 "victim of SNF tornado" 1200+ hrs, rebuilding
N8155F C150 flying
N7925P PA-24-250 Comanche, restoring
Not a thing I own is stock.
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08-14-2013, 09:10 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Colleyville
Posts: 299
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A different perspective, As a buyer I would not buy a aircraft unless the engine was new or built by a well known engine shop. Even if you used yellow tagged parts you can't guarantee it was brought back to new limits. I would pass, too many planes on the market to purchase one that had a unknown engine.
So whatever you save on the front end, if you ever plan to sell you might loose on the tail end. Just my 2 cents.
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Tim Blake
Colleyville, Tx
RV8a Purchased flying (many changes) Sold
RV-10 Purchased flying.. Panel upgrade complete.
G3X/Dynon/TT
All new interior complete.
Flyin like a dream.
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08-14-2013, 09:26 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
Posts: 10,768
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Bought my engine as run-out, first run. 2500 hrs TT. Ran great, 12 hrs/qt of oil.
Flew it for almost 3 years. Rebuilt it at 2815 hrs. All parts removed were well within serviceable tolerance.
Rebuilt to new tolerances, new Lycoming cylinders and valves.
Added 9.5:1 pistons and roller rocker arms.
So far at 825 hrs SMOH it is still running great. 16-18 hrs/qt.
__________________
Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
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08-14-2013, 09:31 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
Posts: 10,768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim 8-A
A different perspective, As a buyer I would not buy a aircraft unless the engine was new or built by a well known engine shop. Even if you used yellow tagged parts you can't guarantee it was brought back to new limits. I would pass, too many planes on the market to purchase one that had a unknown engine.
So whatever you save on the front end, if you ever plan to sell you might loose on the tail end. Just my 2 cents.
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You can somewhat evaluate an engine overhaul by reading the logbook entry.
The entry should list every part and whether it is new, used, or serviceable.
If the entry doesn't cover more than one full page, beware.
If you are building your airplane for resale, that's a totally different situation. Most people build to suit themselves.
__________________
Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
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08-14-2013, 09:35 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 669
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I have the benefit of having been to the Lycoming school - it made the work necessary on my Cherokee engine (lifter spalling) easy. Savings were indeed significant, even counting the cost of the school.
Personally, and I know there are many other opinions, I wouldn't have been comfortable without the school. There is just enough of "don't try this at home" involved from my perspective.
Having the savings as one thing, but as others have observed, when (if) the time comes to sell, the prospective buyer will probably reduce any offer on the assumption that the engine is in need of being redone.
The other thing to consider is the initial break in. At a shop, it'll be on a test stand with cooling and recording of key instrument readings. On your own, ground running could very well glaze the cylinders. You're pretty much left with a quick run to check for oil leaks, a second quick run to make sure you get takeoff power. And, then you go. Seems like a lot when you add that to a first flight. (There is a Lycoming bulletin describing the initial break in on the ground - it could be okay with nitrided steel cylinders; I don't think I'd want to do it with the ECi nickel carbides.)
YMMV
Dan
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RV7A (N7101) - Flying 10/2008
CFI- SE/ME/Inst
A&P
KC2ZEL
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08-14-2013, 09:39 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Illinois
Posts: 231
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I did and would absolutely do it again. It's been some years but I paid something like $3000 for the 'mid time no damage history' engine with no logs. I disassembled and sent all major parts off to a reputable shop to check and got everything back yellow tagged with no work required (the lucky part which saved me TONS of money). Assembled the engine to new specs myself with new electronic ignitions and new starter all up somewhere around $10k. For full disclosure I had plenty of prior auto engine experience so it wasn't my first (or second, or third) time around the inside of a motor. Lycomings are laughably simple and if you can follow simple instructions and have the proper tools (cylinder wrenches being about the only non-standard tools you wouldn't already have) you can build the engine just as good as anyone else can. There is just nothing to them and they are unbelievably simple. The power section consists of rods bolted onto the crank (with bearings), lifters pushed in, cam (not even with bearings), crank bearings, appropriately prepared case mating surfaces, bolt together and there you have the power section. Bolt cylinders on and then you're down to the accessory case side. There are details i'm neglecting but it really ain't much harder than that. I totally understand some guys would not want to mess with the inside of a motor but for people that have some experience with engines there is nothing the least bit hard about it and if you get a good core you can absolutely save LOTS of money. The good core is the hard part.
We had kids and life changed and I sold the airplane after only flying it a couple of years. I would not say I got anything less for it.
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08-14-2013, 10:03 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 240
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I bought an IO-360-C1C that came off a repo'd arrow. I bought it as a core, for $6600, without even seeing the logbooks (seller hadn't gotten them from the bank yet).
When he got the logbooks and sent them to me, to my surprise there's only 975 SMOH on it! On the other hand, it's on its 5th run, and has 5800TT. There's a yellowtag from Divco in the books for every major, and that's mostly good enough for me.
I've had the sump and accessory housing off, and it looks great inside. I've snaked a borescope up inside to get a look at the cam. At this point I'm not uncomfortable running this engine as-is. I'll run it and watch its consumption and oil analysis. If it gives me cause for concern, I'll overhaul it myself.
Like Scott said, these things are really dirt simple. If you can build a small-block chevy, you will have NO problem with a lycoming.
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Ian
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08-14-2013, 10:12 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
Posts: 10,768
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Yes & No!
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmbg
Like Scott said, these things are really dirt simple. If you can build a small-block chevy, you will have NO problem with a lycoming.
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Yes, Lycomings are dirt simple engines. On the other hand, they are not like a small block Chevy. Air cooled engines are quite different from water cooled ones. If you put up an air cooled engine to the tolerances of a liquid cooled one, you will be asking for trouble.
As an aside; be it known that even an A&P cannot legally overhaul a certified aircraft engine unless he has done that particular model under supervision before.
__________________
Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
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08-14-2013, 10:22 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Roy, Utah
Posts: 1,144
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I assembled my ECI O320 in 2008 for 2/3 the cost of a new Lyc from Vans.
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Five Sierra Fox
RV-9A
Utah
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08-14-2013, 10:42 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Gardnerville Nv.
Posts: 2,828
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Interesting points made about getting parts inspected and yellow tagged for resale value. And all the appropriate log book entries. What are some of newer mods out there that would be worth considering, piston spray nozzles ect? Thanks for all the input. Bret
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7A Slider, EFII Angle 360, CS, SJ.
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