Wing dips to signal cross unders

[walkman]

I need my memory refreshed on using wing dips to cross elements in a formation instead of hand signals. I realize these aren't in the FFI standards and therefore can't be considered "standard" but they are frequently used.

I can't remember specifically, if the formation is stacked echelon left, and lead dips his right wing to indicate a cross to the right, to whom does this refer? My memory says that it refers to the outermost aircraft or element. So, in the case of a 3 ship, 3 crosses to the right and in the case of a 4 ship, the element 3+4 crosses to the right.

Is that correct?

[jthocker]

Originally Posted by walkman

I need my memory refreshed on using wing dips to cross elements in a formation instead of hand signals. I realize these aren't in the FFI standards and therefore can't be considered "standard" but they are frequently used.

I can't remember specifically, if the formation is stacked echelon left, and lead dips his right wing to indicate a cross to the right, to whom does this refer? My memory says that it refers to the outermost aircraft or element. So, in the case of a 3 ship, 3 crosses to the right and in the case of a 4 ship, the element 3+4 crosses to the right.

Is that correct?

I don't think it matters. If you are planning to fly any formation with any other groups, you might as well forget what you did in another life, and get on board with FFI! THAT IS THE STANDARD NOW!

[Kingsman11]

Believe it or not, standardization is the key to success. Everyone learns the standard operating procedures, and don't winging it. The success in the military, and airlines has brought down the incident/accident rates.
I remember 40 years ago while in the U.S. Air Force Undergraduate Pilot Training that the wing dip was the signal for a cross under. The standardization with the Warbirds, and other organizations produce the great fly-ins/airshow performances. EAA has been at bat for us all in the formation flying circles.
"The Formation And Safety Team (FAST) national program was a product of the perceived need within the warbird community to standardize, and increase the safety of formation flying." "In 1993 the first Warbird Operators Conference was held in Galviston, Texas, and an historic event occurred; the various warbird organizations agreed to investigate, and adopt a common national program for formation flying."
FWIW

[jclark]

Originally Posted by jthocker

I don't think it matters. If you are planning to fly any formation with any other groups, you might as well forget what you did in another life, and get on board with FFI! THAT IS THE STANDARD NOW!

I had this discussion with a military guy who now flies an RV.
After a long dialog on the matter, he came to agree that the FFI standard is the best approach, at least for RV's. He committed to stick to the standard.

Try flying in really bumpy weather, up close (as Team AeroDynamix and other frequent formation flyers do) with our LIGHT Rv's. When lead hits a bump and the wings get rocked or dipped, UNINTENDED. who moves where?
... Really bad things can happen then.

I would also guess that you will not find many FFI (or FAST??) cardholders that would be willing to fly up close with you if you are using *some* different signals from the "standard".

James

[walkman]

you convinced me...

[N520TX]

Originally Posted by walkman

you convinced me...

We've got a formation training clinic coming soon in October to be held in Pine Bluff. Sounds like a prime time to get some refresher training done, and make some new friends. If past years are to hold up, you won't be disappointed.

--Ron

[keithschult]

Several members of KC Flight are going to PBF for the clinic in October. We look forward to seeing many of you there.