VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics


Go Back   VAF Forums > Model Specific > RV-12/RV-12iS
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-27-2013, 12:54 PM
JimMac JimMac is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Madison, AL
Posts: 67
Default Can a kit-built RV-12 still be a S-LSA

I am having trouble finding a clear answer to this question. I am building an RV-12 aircraft EXACTLY according to instructions - with no deviations in engine, avionics etc. When I am finished, can it be certificated as a S-LSA just as if I had purchased it as a completely finished aircraft in the first place? I would appreciate any clarification.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-27-2013, 12:56 PM
sandpiper sandpiper is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Independence, OR
Posts: 316
Default

To my knowledge, no. I can't give you the regulation but that is my understanding.
__________________
John Horn (donated for 2020)
Independence, OR
LSRM-A, CFII
Rotax Service, Maintenance, and Heavy Maintenance Trained
Building an RV-12, N7878H reserved
Flying a Flight Design CTSW
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-27-2013, 01:11 PM
rgmwa rgmwa is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 1,647
Default

No. LSA aircraft built by the manufacturer are S-LSA, at least one of which has to be built to allow kits to be produced and sold that can be registered E-LSA provided they are identical copies of the S-LSA original.
__________________
rgmwa
RV-12LR 912ULS
120346
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-27-2013, 05:45 PM
craigvince's Avatar
craigvince craigvince is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Stockton, CA
Posts: 1,207
Default

If Vans builds it, it is S-LSA.
If anyone else builds it, it is E-LSA or E-AB.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-27-2013, 06:45 PM
Mel's Avatar
Mel Mel is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
Posts: 10,768
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandpiper View Post
To my knowledge, no. I can't give you the regulation but that is my understanding.
An RV-12 built exactly per the plans, with no unapproved modifications, may be certificated as an ELSA under 21.191(i)(2). (Experimental Category)

An RV-12 built exactly per the plans, or with modifications, may be certificated as an EAB under 21.191(g). (Experimental Category)

An RV-12 built by a factory under contract from Vans will be certificated as an SLSA under 21.190. (Light Sport Category)
__________________
Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>

Last edited by Mel : 07-30-2013 at 06:05 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-27-2013, 07:23 PM
DonFromTX's Avatar
DonFromTX DonFromTX is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: La Feria Texas
Posts: 3,822
Default

Technicality, but if you build it ELSA, Vans is the builder! That was personally offensive to me, after all that work on my baby, I wanted MY NAME to be on the data plate as builder, not Vans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigvince View Post
If Vans builds it, it is S-LSA.
If anyone else builds it, it is E-LSA or E-AB.
__________________
A&P, PP-SEL, Pathological Flier, EAA Technical Counselor
EAA Chapter 595 President,http://www.595.eaachapter.org/index.htm
Retired US Army Officer
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-27-2013, 07:49 PM
rgmwa rgmwa is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 1,647
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonFromTX View Post
Technicality, but if you build it ELSA, Vans is the builder! That was personally offensive to me, after all that work on my baby, I wanted MY NAME to be on the data plate as builder, not Vans.
You'll have to move to Australia Don. CASA doesn't buy that argument. Over here, if you built it, you are the builder whether you certify it ELSA or AB(E). They won't accept `Vans Aircraft Inc.' on the data plate. Only problem with certifying ELSA here is that while you can do maintenance on your pride and joy, you can't sign off the annuals (unless you happen to be a licensed aircraft maintenance engineer (LAME) or similarly qualified). Consequently, hardly anyone here bothers with ELSA. It's more of a restriction than a benefit.
__________________
rgmwa
RV-12LR 912ULS
120346

Last edited by rgmwa : 07-27-2013 at 07:53 PM. Reason: Clarification
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-27-2013, 08:59 PM
lawrence lawrence is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: omaha,nebraska area.
Posts: 161
Default Can a kit-built RV-12 still be a S-LSA

hello jim: did you get a clear answer?
__________________
RV-3
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-27-2013, 09:50 PM
DonFromTX's Avatar
DonFromTX DonFromTX is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: La Feria Texas
Posts: 3,822
Default

Yeah, it is cute how there are MANY reasons to go either way. As an A&P myself of course that was never even a consideration. From some point of view, I don't agree with who the builder is on an ELSA. Almost fraudulent actually to make it appear Vans built it, instead of the lonely houswife with a pair of pliers and a screwdriver..
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgmwa View Post
You'll have to move to Australia Don. CASA doesn't buy that argument. Over here, if you built it, you are the builder whether you certify it ELSA or AB(E). They won't accept `Vans Aircraft Inc.' on the data plate. Only problem with certifying ELSA here is that while you can do maintenance on your pride and joy, you can't sign off the annuals (unless you happen to be a licensed aircraft maintenance engineer (LAME) or similarly qualified). Consequently, hardly anyone here bothers with ELSA. It's more of a restriction than a benefit.
__________________
A&P, PP-SEL, Pathological Flier, EAA Technical Counselor
EAA Chapter 595 President,http://www.595.eaachapter.org/index.htm
Retired US Army Officer
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-27-2013, 10:22 PM
rvbuilder2002's Avatar
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,035
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonFromTX View Post
Yeah, it is cute how there are MANY reasons to go either way. As an A&P myself of course that was never even a consideration. From some point of view, I don't agree with who the builder is on an ELSA. Almost fraudulent actually to make it appear Vans built it, instead of the lonely houswife with a pair of pliers and a screwdriver..
Just in case it is not clear, Van's Aircraft Inc is listed on an E-LSA RV-12 as manufacturer because that is what the FAA Order 813o.2G requires (not because they wanted to be).
In simple terms (though it is not quite that simple) the FAA considers an E-LSA RV-12 to be a production line RV-12 that was built remotely in some home builders shop. Because its construction was not done under the quality control process's in place to build an S-LSA airplane, it must be certificated as an E-LSA, but Van's as the manufacturer signifying it is a copy of the previously certificated S-LSA.
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.

Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:48 AM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.