|
-
POSTING RULES

-
Donate yearly (please).
-
Advertise in here!
-
Today's Posts
|
Insert Pics
|

07-21-2013, 11:29 PM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 9,035
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner
Can you explain what you have in mind?
|
LODA Letter of Deviation Authority... Allows an owner of a E-AB aircraft that has operating limitations that wont allow operations for hire (charging for the use of the airplane while giving transition training), to do so.
Broader availability of transition training would help with first flight and test flying safety, but in a lot of areas around the country, the FAA has made it rather difficult for an instructor to obtain a LODA.
Standardizing the LODA application process, and getting all of the FSDO's on the same page, would be a big step towards helping people have a means of getting properly prepared for test flying.
__________________
Opinions, information and comments are my own unless stated otherwise. They do not necessarily represent the direction/opinions of my employer.
Scott McDaniels
Van's Aircraft Engineering Prototype Shop Manager
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
|

07-22-2013, 12:53 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 6,797
|
|
LODA
I have had a LODA for the past year and a half. It did require some persistance on my part, but was not unduly difficult to obtain. The real issue is that unless you can generate a significant amount of business the cost of insurance for this activity makes it expensive. I passed my extra insurance costs on to the transition trainees, and they paid an average of $130 per hour for insurance! That's more than twice the cost of avgas!!
I do think the high cost discourages transition training.
One thing Mark mentioned was broadening LODAs (I am currently limited to transition training only - no flight reviews, no IPCs, not even high performance endorsements) to hopefully increase business opportunities and thereby bring the average cost of insurance down. I will have to think about this some more, to see if it makes sense for me.
|

07-22-2013, 04:42 AM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: MKE
Posts: 1,519
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner
Can you explain what you have in mind?
|
Scott pretty well nailed it. As he said, the rules seem to be different around the country (as with so many other things) and just because it was reasonable in your area does not mean it is in the rest of the country. I think the availability of transition training is one of if not the single biggest factor in phase 1 flight safety. Granted, insurance is also an issue but that is not under the FAA's control. I can't help but believe that as the pool of qualified transition CFIs increases (assuming a good accident rate) that insurance costs will go down. Insurance companies like to see more rather than fewer participating in an activity. But I get the cost thing, it's one of the reasons I don't instruct anymore and let my CFI lapse.
__________________
Jeff Point
RV-6, RLU-1 built & flying
Tech Counselor, Flight Advisor & President, EAA Chapter 18
Milwaukee
|

07-22-2013, 09:06 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 81
|
|
This is really great discussion, and I thank you all for your comments so far to date. Keep them coming. I?ve read them all and continue to do so. I hope you?ll forgive me if I can?t reply to all of the incoming questions. I will take them all into account when I do my presentations and try to address the vast majority of comments and concerns. To date, I believe my presentation actually does this. One of the first things you?ll be asked in the ?show of hands? questions is whether a second pilot should be allowed on board the first flight. I?ll show some compelling information and statistics about Phase I. I have agreed at one time or another with almost everyone?s opinion. No second pilot. Second pilot. No second pilot. Second pilot. I will say that I have been working with pilot groups and alphabet organizations to drive to where we are. I have received quite a bit of support on the matter. I?m really excited about the opportunity to present this to you all this year, and I hope you will attend. Those who have been through Phase I have great experience to share. Those who are ready to start will have an opportunity to see what?s on the horizon. Those providing transition training will get to hear about where it?s headed, and those looking for training will learn of some valuable resources to utilize.
|

07-22-2013, 09:34 AM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
Posts: 10,768
|
|
The sole purpose of phase I flight testing is just that! Flight testing of the aircraft. If the builder is not qualified to do the flight testing, then a qualified pilot should be brought on board. There is absolutely no reason to have another person on board the aircraft.
After a reasonable number of hours, I might be in favor of allowing another pilot on board, but certainly not on the first flight.
Another thing I might add here. There have been occasions where an FAA inspector has "OK'd" a second pilot during phase I. He does NOT have the authority to authorize a violation of the rules.
I've been signing off amateur-built aircraft and light-sport aircraft for 14 years and I emphasize this on reading the op lims every time.
__________________
Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
|

07-22-2013, 10:16 AM
|
 |
Senior Curmudgeon
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
Posts: 15,420
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel
After a reasonable number of hours, I might be in favor of allowing another pilot on board, but certainly not on the first flight.
|
Yep, although I am in support of allowing a second pilot ----qualified pilot----on board when needed, I totally agree with Mel that the maiden flight is not the place for it. If the builder is not competent to do the first flight, hire someone who is.
__________________
Mike Starkey
VAF 909
Rv-10, N210LM.
Flying as of 12/4/2010
Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011 
Sold after 240+ wonderful hours of flight.
"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
|

07-22-2013, 11:10 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Eagles Nest, T56
Posts: 68
|
|
Education please
Where is the FAR requirement for only one person in the aircraft during phase one?
|

07-22-2013, 11:18 AM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
Posts: 10,768
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by twisted-wrench
Where is the FAR requirement for only one person in the aircraft during phase one?
|
FAA Order 8130.2G, operating limitations for amateur-built aircraft, paragraph (10), "During the flight testing phase, no person may be carried in this aircraft during flight unless that person is essential to the purpose of the flight."
The purpose of flight during phase I is flight testing of the aircraft, period.
__________________
Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
|

07-22-2013, 11:21 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 6,797
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by twisted-wrench
Where is the FAR requirement for only one person in the aircraft during phase one?
|
It is indirect. FARs require you to adhere to all limitations placed on the airworthiness certificate. For EAB those come in the form of operating limitations. These virtually always define phase one and two, and restrict phase one to day vfr, certain geographical areas, and to 'necessary crew'. Both Vans and my DAR explicitly said that was one person.
Edit: I see Mel posted first with the official FAA words.
|

07-22-2013, 11:27 AM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 08A
Posts: 9,500
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike S
Yep, although I am in support of allowing a second pilot ----qualified pilot----on board when needed,
|
And when would a second pilot be "needed"?
Let's call it what it is....a desire for flight instruction. Flight instruction in a Phase 1 airplane isn't safe for anyone.
__________________
Dan Horton
RV-8 SS
Barrett IO-390
|
| Thread Tools |
Search this Thread |
|
|
|
| Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:37 AM.
|