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07-11-2013, 10:29 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: KRTS
Posts: 1,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkatc
Great discussion, some of which I knew already, some which I did not.
Ok....so lets switch gears a bit. We are scud running with a good engine and we run into trouble, the tops are unknown but thought to be VERY high so climbing through IFR weather is not an option for the VFR only pilot. (Of course there may be instances where I would climb to a safe altitude anyway, declare an emergency and ask for help) Based on this thread, I am better off trusting my GPS altitude and terrain warnings. Personally, I would be inclined to make a 180 degree turn and try to find the better weather from which I just came from. If in mountainous terrain, I would also likely be inclined to climb a bit. In flatlands I probably maintain altitude.
So the 180 is successful...my GPS is warning of terrain (yellow not red), do I dip down slowly to try to get under that ceiling?
I suppose one never knows what they will do until they encounter the situation but I'd rather discuss it now rather than later. On one hand you are facing FAR violations, on the other, well...perhaps death. What do you do?
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I do a lot of mountain ridge crossings wtih a 530W that has the terrain map in it. I watch it for funzies every now and then, and going through the passes I've seen terrain co-altitude that was yellow more than a few times.
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07-12-2013, 04:45 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkatc
... I suppose one never knows what they will do until they encounter the situation but I'd rather discuss it now rather than later. On one hand you are facing FAR violations, on the other, well...perhaps death. What do you do?
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I keep thinking about this thread so I'll take a stab at it:
Completely agree that working out answers for different what-if scenarios is a good process. But, for this what-if, I would look for root causes rather than a mitigation plan.
I would say the easiest answer applies in this case: prevention. I have little sympathy for someone caught IMC in the mountains. And if you have kids, family, or passengers in the aircraft -- now I'm angry.
My rule is everyone goes home for dinner tonight. The suggested scenarios would have many variables and any potential mitigation effort is not a good choice. You are facing a high probability of death. An FAR violation would not even make my list of concerns.
The CCC: climb, communicate, confess. Get away from the rocks. Use the autopilot, if available. The 180 turn can be a viable option. Keep the turn level. Only climb/descend with wings level. Get more under-the-hood training and try to keep some kind of proficiency. Find the moisture and stay way, way afar from it.
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07-12-2013, 05:43 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: KSLC
Posts: 4,021
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTOA
I would say the easiest answer applies in this case: prevention. I have little sympathy for someone caught IMC in the mountains. And if you have kids, family, or passengers in the aircraft -- now I'm angry.
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You never know for sure. Ten years or so back, a local pilot cancelled his IFR, to land at his local untowered airport. City lights were below. Due to complete darkness, he ended up in a low cloud, became disoriented, only to turn towards the quickly rising mountain. He overflew some foothill subdivisions, before crashing into the terrain.
Actually, I have a lot of real life CFIT stories from around here. VFR one moment, and unplanned, unexpected IMC the next. This includes whiteouts during daytime conditions.
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07-12-2013, 07:26 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L.Adamson
... VFR one moment, and unplanned, unexpected IMC the next. This includes whiteouts during daytime conditions.
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Nope, I quietly call BS. Clouds do not spontaneously appear as if by magic, especially over any significant area of landmass. Temperature & dew point are coming together, which is part of pre-flight planning. Yes, I know it can happen quickly and this needs to be planned for. We see something similar all the time on the west coast when the fog/stratus moves in.
I have zero knowledge of your IFR example -- but I?ll guess you would counter with there was no wx reporting at the airport, and I will counter unused local knowledge, poor instrument skills, poor CRM, poor ADM, poor risk management, poor pre-flight planning, etc., contributed greatly to the accident. And it sounds like he cancelled IFR without the airport in sight, which would be stupid, at night, with nearby mountainous terrain. Just land and cancel on the ground. Tragically the pilot got behind the airplane, probably starting with his wx planning.
I haven?t given it much thought but I can?t think a single CFIT where pilot error was not part of the root cause.
As I previously stated, there are many variables which can be added to tkatc's example: let?s add night, rain, wind, turbulence, equipment failure, rotors, or icing?
And how well trained/proficient is the pilot? Are they painting themselves into a box canyon with their lack of needed skill set? We all make mistakes, sometimes it's the last one.
As each risk factor is added, your personal minimums and go/no go decision should be adjusted accordingly.
This is a good topic to noodle on and a fun discussion.
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07-12-2013, 09:24 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: KSLC
Posts: 4,021
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTOA
Nope, I quietly call BS. Clouds do not spontaneously appear as if by magic, especially over any significant area of landmass. Temperature & dew point are coming together, which is part of pre-flight planning. Yes, I know it can happen quickly and this needs to be planned for. We see something similar all the time on the west coast when the fog/stratus moves in.
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changed & edited the first reply.....
Definitions of whiteouts:
As defined in meteorological terms, white out is when a person becomes engulfed in a uniformly white glow. The glow is a result of being surrounded by blowing snow, dust, sand, mud or water. There are no shadows, no horizon or clouds and all depth-of-field and orientation are lost. A white out situation is severe in that there aren't any visual references. Flying is not recommended in any white out situation. Flat light conditions can lead to a white out environment quite rapidly, and both atmospheric conditions are insidious: they sneak up on you as your visual references slowly begin to disappear. White out has been the cause of several aviation accidents in snow-covered areas.
A snow-covered terrain together with a clouds overcast create a phenomenon called "white-out" that eliminate perception of terrain features (slope) and height above terrain.
I knew five people that have lost their lives due to these conditions. Snow covered terrain & daylight, was an issue in these CFIT situations. You might be surprised of some of the illusions, that you wouldn't expect. A Cessna 310 was flying parallel to the Wasatch front on the east side of Salt Lake City. There were broken clouds below him, and blue sky above. Due to more fuel usage than planned, because of head winds, he decided to make an unscheduled fuel stop. He could see the airport in the distance. With bright snow, haze, and a combination of broken clouds, he had no idea that a lower mountain ridge line was on a 90 degree angle to his flight path. Not until the last few seconds did he see that the terrain was actually rising in front of him, instead of below. He slammed both throttles forward, and yanked the yoke back. It was all he could do. Luckily for him and his passenger, the aircraft hit flat against the 60 degree slope & cartwheeled. They both survived with minor injuries, as the plane sat on this slope about 300' higher than surrounding homes. Once again, a moving map terrain GPS, sure would have been nice.
Last edited by L.Adamson : 07-12-2013 at 10:20 PM.
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07-12-2013, 09:37 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: KSLC
Posts: 4,021
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTOA
I haven?t given it much thought but I can?t think a single CFIT where pilot error was not part of the root cause.
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I've spent 36 years studying CFIT. Call it a side hobby of mine. When a DC-8 slammed into the mountain close to home in 1977, I started thinking about it a lot. There's always a bit of pilot error. If everything worked perfectly to plan, there wouldn't be a problem. It's just bits & pieces that add up. But were talking GPS, moving maps & synthetic vision here. More than not, these devices would have made a tremendous difference to the outcome. I don't care to hear about the perfect flight plan, in which everything "always" falls into place.
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07-15-2013, 10:22 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L.Adamson
<snip> He could see the airport in the distance <snip> he had no idea that a lower mountain ridge line was on a 90 degree angle to his flight path <snip> Not until the last few seconds did he see that the terrain was actually rising in front of him
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The 310 pilot lost positional awareness. Regardless of whether he actually had the airport in sight or not, he did not know where he was, got too low and flew into the ground. The ground did not rise up and smite him.
Straight from the FAA (PHAK Ch. 16):
How To Prevent Landing Errors Due to Optical Illusions. To prevent these illusions and their potentially hazardous consequences, pilots can: … 1. Anticipate the possibility of visual illusions during approaches to unfamiliar airports, particularly at night or in adverse weather conditions. 2. Make frequent reference to the altimeter, especially during all approaches, day and night. … Illusions rank among the most common factors cited as contributing to fatal aviation accidents.
Optical illusions are not black magic voodoo, they exist, there are a lot of them, and we are aware of them. The 310 pilot failed at several levels but the optical illusion only contributed to, but was not the root cause.
Quote:
Originally Posted by L.Adamson
Once again, a moving map terrain GPS, sure would have been nice.
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Yes it would have. But he didn't, got behind the airplane, and failed.
Last edited by KTOA : 07-15-2013 at 01:41 PM.
Reason: slight clarification
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07-15-2013, 10:31 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L.Adamson
I've spent 36 years studying CFIT. Call it a side hobby of mine. When a DC-8 slammed into the mountain close to home in 1977, I started thinking about it a lot. There's always a bit of pilot error. If everything worked perfectly to plan, there wouldn't be a problem. It's just bits & pieces that add up. But were talking GPS, moving maps & synthetic vision here. More than not, these devices would have made a tremendous difference to the outcome. I don't care to hear about the perfect flight plan, in which everything "always" falls into place.
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Disclaimer ? I sound like the grim reaper below but I?m just a happy pilot, who?s enjoyed decades of flying and thousands of safe hours (sometimes due to blind luck.)
Global Comments:
Let?s remember, a pilot always flies into the IMC condition, intentionally or unintentionally. Every. Single. Time.
Whether it?s takeoff, climb, cruise, descent, or approach, the pilot has made the decision to fly. Actions have consequences, and, at times, they are tragic. I keep an open mind but I?ve never read an accident report stating IMC conditions chased down and enveloped the aircraft.
Part of the accident chain is human factors. There is a psychology of awareness of fault, oversight, or omission that pilots either are unaware of or just choose to ignore. Some pilots had no idea they were on a path of destruction until the very instant it occurred.
With respect to the OP asking about getting out of IMC in the mountains: having flown with GPS, SV, HITS, WAAS, TAWS, GPWS, FLIR, etc., they are all absolutely awesome and a paradigm shift. But it won?t help most VFR pilots get out of IMC conditions. Unless they have a good A/P and a cool head, someone still has to fly the airplane and the pretty picture provided by the GPS doesn?t help with that. It?s just a glorified AI. The VFR into IMC statistics coldly bear this out in black and white.
The FARs state explicitly: Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight. This includes many different things, including awareness of wx, optical illusions, risk management, and good planning. Maybe a VFR pilot/flight, over mountainous terrain, with sketchy weather, is not a good risk or idea. The old clich? that the accident investigation occurs in CAVU conditions eight hours after the accident has a lot of validity.
This is quickly becoming an outline for a white paper so I?m now bowing out.
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07-15-2013, 05:35 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: KSLC
Posts: 4,021
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTOA
With respect to the OP asking about getting out of IMC in the mountains: having flown with GPS, SV, HITS, WAAS, TAWS, GPWS, FLIR, etc., they are all absolutely awesome and a paradigm shift. But it won?t help most VFR pilots get out of IMC conditions. Unless they have a good A/P and a cool head, someone still has to fly the airplane and the pretty picture provided by the GPS doesn?t help with that. It?s just a glorified AI. The VFR into IMC statistics coldly bear this out in black and white.
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Right off the top of my head, I have a file on two CFITs that involved CFI's. They didn't have color moving map GPS with terrain data bases either. Naturally, since these areas weren't too far way, I visited the sites with my own GPS setup to verify & document. Unless they were just asleep, I can verify that a collusion with terrain, wouldn't have happened, had they had.....
In other words, I had plenty of warning, far, far in advance.
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07-16-2013, 12:09 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Calgary, Canada
Posts: 408
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It's another tool. Doesn't warrant flying into IMC if it isn't warranted (plane, conditions and pilot qualified for it), but it is a tool that will help.
Think of the other end. Vfr pilot into IMC with nothing but an altimeter and airspeed, maybe a T&B that works... I know what I'd pick. Just don't let it get you into something you can't handle out of a stupid sense of security.
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Calgary, Alberta, Canada
RV7 QB - Airframe largely complete, sans canopy and glass... unfortunately sold
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"Being defeated is only a temporary condition; giving up is what makes it permanent."
-- Marilyn vos Savant
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