New guy here looking at the -12

[GhostRider32]

Originally Posted by videobobk

I might also point out that the 12 is available fly-away at about the same cost as the kit. We can have one built for you as a school project. Takes usually less time than it would take you to build it, and you give over a dozen kids their start in aviation. $80k with lights, full interior and paint.

Bob

A great option but this is going to be a father son project. At 11, my son already helps service his own dirt bike. Things like removing wheels, air filters, transmission oil changes, ect..... He's as excited as me about doing this.

[ccsmith51]

Originally Posted by GhostRider32

I'm sorry your wife didn't support you on most anything but not everyone is like that. My wife is scared of heights, not scared of me flying. She backs me on building and owning the plane, just not flying. She doesn't like to fly commercially either. My kids and I ride/race dirt bikes and she doesn't do that either but she still supports it.

I'm sorry it didn't work out for you but for you to say I'm not ready based on your experience is reaching a little.

I agree. In 2004 when I decided to build a plane I was trying to give my wife all the reasons for US to own a plane, all the things WE could do, and all places THE TWO OF US could go. She doesn't like to fly and all I got was resistance.

We were at Sun 'n Fun and I got her into the Sonex and sat beside her and told her all the rationale over and over again. Tony Spicer was there, watching and listening, and when we got out he pulled me over and said "Stop trying to convince her that SHE needs the plane. Only convince her that YOU want the plane and that she does not have to fly with you if she doesn't want to."

I followed his advice and as soon as she felt that she didn't have to fly with me she was behind me 150%. Helped when I needed it, never said a word about costs, encouraged me when I was down, gave me more support that I could ever have expected.

That was 2004. I completed the Sonex in 2006 and sold it in 2011. I then bought my RV-4. She still has not flown with me, and she still supports my flying habit 100%.

I'll never forget one day I came home from flying and working on the plane. She said to me "You smell good, you smell like airplanes."

Think I'll keep her for another 35 years...

[SMO]

Originally Posted by ccsmith51

She still has not flown with me, and she still supports my flying habit 100%.

I'm in the same boat, wife wont fly in small airplanes but supports the building and flying. When my RV-4 broke down for the final time just after I retired last year she insisted I go buy a flying aircraft while I finish the Rocket (opted for the Super Decathlon).

My kids and some of the spouses all like to go flying with Dad when they come home, and time will tell if the grandkids like it too.

No complaints from here!

[ccsmith51]

Originally Posted by SMO

...When my RV-4 broke down for the final time...

That sounds serious! I have an RV-4 and would like to know what "broke down" so badly that you replaced it. What did you do with it? Thanks,

[SMO]

Originally Posted by ccsmith51

I have an RV-4 and would like to know what "broke down" so badly that you replaced it. What did you do with it? ,

Wow, where do I start. Here is the short version:

- Aileron bearing
- Elevator and Aileron control stops
- Reskinned 1 elevator (horn too close to HS)
- Replaced the engine (450 hours on rebuild, corroded cam)
- Replaced failed mag with a Pmag
- Replaced alternator after in flight failure
- Replaced exhaust system after in flight failure
- Built and replaced fuel tanks
- Replaced ELT with 406
- Redid the panel (not failure related)
- Installed electric elevator trim (not failure related)
- CS Prop failed on T&G (would not go into fine pitch)
- Upon decowling also found a crack in the engine mount
- Found cracks in the firewall behind the engine mount

Threw my hands in the air and said "Uncle". Advertised it on VAF and Barnstormers "as is, where is". I was not going to spend another dollar or another hour on it other than helping load it on someone else's trailer to get it out of my hangar. Sold it for $32k, net loss about $30k.

I owned it for 5 years. During that time I put about 150 hours on it, and probably spent 750 hours working on it, a 5:1 ratio. In the 10 months I have had the Decathlon I have put about 70 hours on it and spent 10 hours on it doing the annual - the local AME spent about 8 hours, about 20 times better. No parts required.

Lesson learned: I went looking for and bought the cheapest RV-4 I could find with a CS prop. Big mistake. Prebuy inspection by a recommended RV guy didn't help me much. When I went looking for the Decathlon I looked for the nicest used one I could find, and paid the price. Has been well worth it.

[SMO]

Oh, and I forgot the fuel pump woes, engine driven one failed in flight over the Rockies (that's a heart thumper for ya), and the boost pump was replaced because it was making so much noise I thought it was on its last legs.

I'm getting depressed all over again just writing this, think I'll go roll around in the sky with the Decathlon to get my head back on straight!

[pietermk]

Originally Posted by GhostRider32

One thing I really like about the 650 though is the ability to carry 30 gallons of fuel so each plane has things to like.

Is the 30 gallons important to you because of the distance you can fly in one go? If so think about this, a Rotax burns 5 gallons an hour, so you could fly 6 hours right? Can your bladder fly six hours? I always notice that when you fly you have to pee more or earlier when walking around. I think it has to do with the fact that sit and "compress" your abdomen and therefore your bladder.

On my longer flights I notice that 2 to 2.5 hours is about the longest I can go. And no I am not 90 years old

Peter

[videobobk]

A couple of notes: The 650 brochure says it may meet the requirements or a light sport aircraft and the 12, built to plan, does. As I read the brochure, the 650 has 24 gal. fuel. 30 may put you out of the LS limits on weight, I don't know. Being light sport may or may not be important to you. Compare resale prices as that can be important, and is a good gauge of real value. And while you are absolutely correct that there are pluses to each plane out there, the relative numbers being built are a pretty good indicator of which plane has the most. Build costs are virtually the same, comparing apples to apples and panels to panels. Talk to people who have flown both. Finally, and most importantly, fly both. I think you will find both are comfortable. I don't think you will find both flying equally well.

Bob

[bhassel]

Having recently started a 12 I can't tell you how fast this build is, even compared to other RV kits.

The plans are well laid out and lead you step by step. Unless you've built before its difficult to imagine how time saving it is or how much frustration at trying to figure something out is reduced. Hundred's pages of plans are just pages with writing unless they can lead you to the end goal. Boy does Van's have that base covered!

This is the fourth aircraft we've started to build. The first was an RV-9A. Compared to the other 2, it was easy, but I still spent a lot of time scratching my head. We stalled on that, in part because we were waiting to see what the 10 was like (too expensive for me) and then life got in the way. I still have the emp laying around...maybe someday...

Long story short, the next was a Cozy Mk IV (think epoxy fumes and sanding and sanding and...). My current environment didn't allow for a temp controlled work area so that meant reduced build time through out the year. This could take forever, or at least my forever...

Then just for a fun project a Hummel Ultracruiser. 26 pages of plans and basically no build manual. I discovered I'm not yet a plans builder (at least on that level). Did I say fun? I missed that part...but that was just me and inexperience walking hand in foot, behind the head with my shoulder twisted.

Now the 12. Very little time spent being frustrated by not understanding and everything goes together quickly; step by step, all spelled out. We put the rudder together in two nights work in the garage, after work. We finished up the VS the next evening. We're starting the HS today and I can't imagine this will take very long. The fuse bulkheads are done except for the bulkhead that holds on the emp. That has six bucked rivets to do yet.

My only regret is that I haven't ordered the rest of the kit yet. That should happen next week. I should be ready for engine and panel the beginning of next year.

If I had to do again (and I looked at the 650), I wouldn't change a thing. This is really my first real build and the chance I'll actually complete it are higher than I ever imagined. Fast to build, simple but detailed instructions, accurately cut, bent and pre-drilled parts make my confidence level high and my chance to succeed a virtual given.

I can't wait to fly!

Bob

[JBPILOT]

Getting in and out of the low wing Zeniths is more difficult to me. ( a bunch actually ). HATE standing on the seat. Built times are greater since you have to do more drilling etc. Have a friend who built an S-19 Rans. Takes much longer, and carries less weight. Rotax is expensive, but with my experience, and friends, I'd say the Rotax is 200% better than whatever might be in 2nd place. FOR SURE, get in and out of any you might consider. Also I think you will find visibility is far better in the RV-12. Resale I'm guessing will be better on the RV-12.