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  #11  
Old 06-16-2013, 10:14 AM
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Default Is it really "stupid" or something else?

I'm in education and I don't think stupid can be fixed but I'm not sure either of these pilots are stupid. They sound ignorant to me and ignorance can be remedied. If they both had a PPL, and I'm guessing they did, they know how to fly, to land, to communicate, to navigate, etc., to ***some degree***. I strongly believe they could learn more. Enough more to prevent their mishaps.

We lost a plane, a pilot, and a passenger at the Virginia Festival of Flight this year. My understanding is the pilot had demonstrated ignorance with regard to how to land his new aircraft. On two different occasions that morning he was offered competent instruction and both times he declined the offer. His refusal to learn, cost him and his son their lives. The pilots you cited Pierre got off relatively easy.

The two biggest barriers to learning in my opinion are ego and ego. There's the internal ego (bravado) that makes folks want to think they're better pilots than they may be. There's also the ego that wants acceptance not criticism within the pilot community. It sure seems to me the pilot community is quick to criticize other pilot actions, legitimately or not.

If you're a pilot with less than perfect skills, this ethos makes it awfully hard to admit you need to learn fundamental skills. It's easy to say I need to learn mountain flying, recovery from unusual attitudes, or aerobatics, but to say I need to improve my cross wind skills or to learn to land a new plane, is really tough.

It seems to me there's a lot of wisdom in viewing the PPL as a set of minimal skills and it's really a license to learn. If you really believe a PPL is a license to learn, then tell me, what have you learned lately? Are you remiss to say because its something you should have learned a long time ago? That's my point - its hard to admit you're a less than perfect pilot on fundamental skills.

I'm guessing the KitFox and the Thorpe T-18 pilots were reluctant to admit they needed to learn to handle their new planes, largely because of the pilot community ethos is that we don't admit that our skills might be less than the next guys. I'd further opine that with 1-5 hours of instruction (maybe more) both pilots would have been competent in their new planes - it isn't hard to expand skills, but there is learning that has to happen.

Lastly, as much as the experimental community talks about the benefit of transition training, there's a mixed message going out. I've heard it loud and clear personally, and it sounds like this, "Oh the [insert plane] is an honest plane with no bad faults. You've got 500 as PIC you can handle it. I know a guy flying the same plane with only 100 hours." It all may be true but until you know the handling qualities and quirks of a plane, you're still transitioning.
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  #12  
Old 06-16-2013, 10:16 AM
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I'm not completely sure of the point trying to be made here. Were the incident pilots not tailwheel pilots? If so, then yes, jumping into a new purchase solo was not a good choice.
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  #13  
Old 06-16-2013, 10:33 AM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joker View Post
I guess I have to be the bad guy here, but it seems to me an active runway isn't a very good choice for excercise.
I suspect this is Pierre's own strip for his crop duster business.
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  #14  
Old 06-16-2013, 10:51 AM
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It would be interesting to hear input from some of our aviation insurance reps. I don't think it is that uncommon to hear of a new aircraft owner dinging his aircraft on the first landing. I know of a Stearman, Cessna 195, and a BD-5, that were crashed by their new owners on the first landing attempt.

We all pay for their stupidity through higher insurance rates. Unfortunately there is no enforceable mechanism in place to prevent these acts of stupidity.
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  #15  
Old 06-16-2013, 10:57 AM
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comfortcat comfortcat is offline
 
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Default I wonder if this fits my study....

I'm a computer guy, and did a study a long time ago about perceived knowledge. When you start using a computer for the first time, you usually report that you know little about computers. After the first small amount of exposure, people tend to report they know a lot about computers. BUT as they use the computer more and more, they begin to report that they know less and less about computers!

This may be the same for pilots. Once you have your PPL, you may think: Hey, it's a tricycle gear, single engine, two seater. No problem.

When my hanger partner was finishing up his RV-8, he was looking around for transition training, and I was surprised! I knew I'd need a TON of transition training (low time pilot) but him???? He was a CFI, CFII, corporate pilot with a bazillion hours flying all over the world! Type rated in Global Express and Challengers! He sat me down and told me about airplanes.

OK, I'm not Stupid, but I did not understand airplanes like I thought I did. My guess is that these guys are not stupid either, but they never had the airplane talk, and were low time enough to not understand that they needed it. If you screw up on a computer, you reboot. If you screw up in an airplane and are lucky, you write a check. If you screw up in an airplane and are NOT lucky, your family writes the checks.

Looking at efforts of the EAA and AOPA and type clubs everywhere, I'm hoping this stays a educational issue, and not a regulatory one.

CC
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  #16  
Old 06-16-2013, 11:58 AM
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The T-18 pilot is a student, nearing his PPL checkride and the Kitfox pilot is liicensed and learned in a Cessna 150. Sold his powered parachute and bought the Kitfox..he's a male nurse around 30.

The T-18 guy flew mostly ultralight taildraggers and a VW powered low wing, bubble canopy Hummelbird, all aluminum popular tailwheel airplane. He's around his mid 30's I reckon. Had been flying his Cherokee and bought the T-18 a week before he wrecked it.

Neither one asked for transistion training and both had two seats.

Go figure...
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Last edited by pierre smith : 06-16-2013 at 12:04 PM.
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  #17  
Old 06-16-2013, 12:01 PM
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Default Ego pride

When I have one person offer unsolicited advise, on anything, I am inclined to shrug it off. When two people offer the same incite, I FORCE myself to seriously consider whats being offed. Aviation, work marriage, anything. Experience is the worst teacher, it gives the test first and the lesson after. Giving this perspective of myself to others first can crack the door open to new ideas.
This one I really like. The difference between fantasy and delusion???
Delusions are real
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  #18  
Old 06-16-2013, 12:59 PM
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Toobuilder Toobuilder is offline
 
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So my general opinion is that transition training is always "smart" - for any pilot.

However, NOT receiving transition training is not always "stupid"... As pointed out in the many threads that focus on stick and rudder skills, not all pilots are created equal. Some have a broad experience base and can handle the individual nuances of new aircraft "on the fly" with acceptable safety.

All that said, it would appear that these two incident pilots made an inaccurate skills assessment. It's likely that they would have benefitted from some training. However, this is America- we still have the God given right to make poor decisions.
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WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.

Michael Robinson
______________
Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
RV-8 - SDS CPI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C
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  #19  
Old 06-16-2013, 01:26 PM
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airmel airmel is offline
 
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Default Training is good

Maybe I was just lucky but when I got my PPL many years ago, my instructor would take me flying in different kinds of airplanes - I'm talking Cessna 172, Cherokee 140, Cherokee 180, etc. I had learned in a Cessna 150/152, but each time we went out in one of these "different" airplanes, he insisted I do slow flight, stalls, all the "check out" type things. Back then I wondered why we had to go through this every time and not just go out flying! Well, it has paid off well. I went on to become an airline pilot and had plenty of check rides and plenty of training in each new aircraft. I too will get transition training before I fly my RV - it is a "new" kind of airplane for me!
So, really, is there ever too much training we can get?!
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  #20  
Old 06-16-2013, 01:52 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
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Default

Sometimes the rules are there to protect the inexperienced....

So who signed off the student pilot to fly the Thorp solo? He is supposed to be limited to the aircraft types listed on his certificate, and cfi's cannot sign him off for other aircraft unless they actually fly with him.

Anyone read June's EAA magazine? There's an article of EA-B safety, and Mike Seager describes some of the people who have come for transition trainings as: "...rusty, low time, high turbine time but no recent piston time, all time in one type of aircraft, lacking fundamental skills....". It was never the intent of transition training to scrape off rust. But at least these people knew they needed some kind of training. Or maybe their insurance companies knew.
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