My dream RV-3...is not the RV-3

[BlueRidge]

The Panther LSA and OneX quick build-ish kits could be a bellweather for determining if there is a market for single seat airplanes in this economy.

Panther LSA has been designed around the Corvair alternative engine, to reduce cost of ownership, though an EA-B prototype is being built using an O-320.

The EA-B version should closely match the RV-3 performance and experience. Folding wings is a bonus for reducing or eliminating hangar expenses.

I spoke with a Kitfox IV builder, recently, who lived in a high hangar rent area.

He used the folding wing feature to tow his airplane to and from the airport - since 1995. We quickly calculated he had save $75,000 in hangar rent over the years. That's remarkable.

[LifeofReiley]

Vans does not have a place in the single seat market period. They got lazy and do not listen to their customers wants and needs. the RV3 parts do not fit, are make shift and Vans really does not care. Sad enough, say goodbye to the RV3.

[E. D. Eliot]

It would be interesting to get a guestimate from a few of you who are in the know - how many engineering hours would it take to engineer an 'improved' RV-3? Then multiply that by the average costs of one of Van's Engineers. Then divide that by the number of kits that Van's might sell. I'll bet that the costs of re-engineering and improving the 'new RV-3' would be prohibitively high. And I know that Van's can't afford to produce a kit that loses money.

Only the Shadow knows what the next RV will look like. My guess is that it will be Van's first 'high wing'. Seating up to six, floats and skis will be optional. Hope that it will be a financial winner!

[SvingenB]

Originally Posted by LifeofReiley

Vans does not have a place in the single seat market period. They got lazy and do not listen to their customers wants and needs. the RV3 parts do not fit, are make shift and Vans really does not care. Sad enough, say goodbye to the RV3.

Regarding single seaters the manufacturers will have to think in new directions. The Panther and the Onex are two examples, but are they radical enough? That remains to be seen. As for myself I will get a SD-1 while I continue building my RV-4 (at tortoise speed :-) The SD-1 certainly is radical and it has sold 30 something kits at various grades from scratch build to ready to fly - during the last couple of years - in France alone. Now they start selling other places. I will get the almost ready to fly version, and will be flying in the spring.

The problem with the -3 is the -4. They are too similar. The key is to make a single seater with features that is impossible to optain in a two seater - at the right price.

[sailvi767]

Originally Posted by milt1492

Is it true that Van's only sold 3 RV-3B tail kits last year? If so, doesn't that show the need to update the kit to matched hole technology? And just to be clear, I am talking about basically ending production of the RV-3 entirely, and making a new model based on a modified -8. Same wing, same empannage, shortened fuselage to accommodate only solo pilot operations, addition of the more robust -14 nosegear for those wheel in the front guys and gals.

On second thought, you do need room for an aux fuel tank for that around-the-world flight...

Shrinking a aircraft rarely if ever produces a good result. You almost always end up with a overweight aircraft relative to the actual capabilities of the aircraft. Its very hard to take weight that is not required out of the structure when shrinking a airframe. It is much easier to beef up a airframe as you stretch it or add gross weight. This is one reason why airliners almost always end up stretched and those versions always outsell shortened versions. In some cases the shortened version is never built or sells a handful of airframes only. I suspect if you simply built a 1 Seat RV8 you would lose the flight characteristics that make the RV3 what it is and it would be several hundred pounds heavier.

George

[Louise Hose]

Okay, the kit has some challenges. But, I'd build another one in a heartbeat if the situation presented itself and there was someone to help with the systems and engine part (the real challenges, in my mind).

No pre-punch is a barrier to building???? Surely not. Measuring and drilling is trivial and nearly mindless work. I can't imagine how the pre-punch could be a requisite to building. Even a "dirt person" (to use Sheldon's terminology) like me can conquer the airframe assembly. That ain't the hard part of the process. If you find it too difficult, do like Paul did and farm the work out to your spouse.....or 12 year old kid. It ain't rocket science.

Takes too long to build? I think our build was 15 months by two people who were working full-time (and traveling for work and pleasure a lot), and Paul put a huge amount of time into teaching me how to do things. It's a small plane. It doesn't take long (if you've built before).

Re-design it to be like an -8? Are you kidding me? Why take a near perfect, aerodynamic design and degrade it with the -8's heavier, bulkier style? Yuck!

The -3 is dead? Good joke, Darrell. The -3 is the finest of a very fine line of aircraft and let us hope that Van's never abandons the kit. The comparison to a Ferrarri might be appropriate. Not many will actually have what it takes to own one, but don't we all enjoy knowing that they are out there, available, and maybe someday...? If you want the very best of "total performance," you want to own and fly an RV-3!

[Neal@F14]

Originally Posted by sailvi767

I suspect if you simply built a 1 Seat RV8 you would lose the flight characteristics that make the RV3 what it is and it would be several hundred pounds heavier.

It would completely lose the "pilot's airplane feel" that's so desireable in the -3 and -4.

In the -3 and -4 you sit low in the cockpit... the roll axis (from spinner to tailcone) passes ride thru the middle of your stomach and you also sit so close to the center of gravity that the airplane feels like an extension of your body. I've never flown a -3 yet, but have sit in one and will likely get to fly it one of these days, and do have about 25 hours in the front seat of a -4 so I've got some understanding about this "feel".

In the RV-8, you sit up higher.... nearly above the roll axis, which feels like it goes thru about where your butt sits in the front seat. I love flying the RV-8, in fact it's still my favorite because it's roomy and comfortable and feels powerful and substantial..., but it does feel more like riding on the saddle of a winged horse instead of sitting down deep inside the machine of the -3/-4 ... "wearing the plane like a glove" feeling.

(in my -6 I feel like a little kid driving a 2-seat sports car that I can't hardly see over the dashboard )

[Andy Hill]

Vans does not have a place in the single seat market period. They got lazy and do not listen to their customers wants and needs

Agree with the 1st, disagree with the 2nd.

I reckon Vans do listen to their customers real requirements i.e. what will sell at a good profit. So they've built a heavy overpowered cruiser with a large comfortable cockpit, and by all accounts they are selling these like hotcakes.

If there really was market for an RV-3, it would be filled - if only by someone buying RV-3 kits from Vans and doing whatever was required to make all these mysterious buyers front up with the $$$. The second hand prices for RV-3s tell the story - great fun aircraft they might be, but when people need to commit the $$$ and time to build a single seater, it just does not stack up. IMHO

[celstar]

Originally Posted by Louise Hose

If you want the very best of "total performance," you want to own and fly an RV-3!

Amen!!, I agree with Louise.

I think that the 4 was a compromise from the 3, when ever you change the weight and balance to compensate for the passenger it will change the way the airplane fly?

[BlueRidge]

While on a factory tour I asked if Vans intended to build a high wing bush plane, their answer seems applicable to redesigning and offering a new RV-3 kit.

They said they needed to see a market potential of at least 100 kit sales per year in order to justify introducing a new design at Vans.

Identify 100 RVers who will commit to placing $22k in escrow, for a new pre-punch RV-3 kit, to demonstrate to Vans there is a market.

Money talks.

Or maybe Crowdfunding could pay for the development costs of a new pre-punch RV-3 kit.