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  #11  
Old 06-10-2013, 12:03 AM
RetiredRacer RetiredRacer is offline
 
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Location: Ipswich QLD Australia
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Over the years of reading first flights and reading their empty weights, it's evident that most people build "heavy" RV's with all the goodies. Therefore it would be hard for most people to understand that it is possible to build a very light RV. Our 9a weighed in empty at 893 lb. Recreation Aviation Australia wanted an independent weighing of our 9a before they would register it in their 600 kg (1329 lb) maximum take off class to verify that it indeed was 893 kg.Our light 9a stalled clean at 38 kts and 35 kts with flaps.

Buid a -6 light and you will lower the stall speed!

There are a lot more light RV's around but their owner/builders mostly keep quiet because they are tired of the remarks they get from the "none believers".Both the wife and I are light and with the light aircraft we have a reasonable useful load.
  #12  
Old 06-10-2013, 05:56 AM
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Mel Mel is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RetiredRacer View Post
Over the years of reading first flights and reading their empty weights, it's evident that most people build "heavy" RV's with all the goodies. Therefore it would be hard for most people to understand that it is possible to build a very light RV. Our 9a weighed in empty at 893 lb. Recreation Aviation Australia wanted an independent weighing of our 9a before they would register it in their 600 kg (1329 lb) maximum take off class to verify that it indeed was 893 kg.Our light 9a stalled clean at 38 kts and 35 kts with flaps.
Buid a -6 light and you will lower the stall speed!
There are a lot more light RV's around but their owner/builders mostly keep quiet because they are tired of the remarks they get from the "none believers".Both the wife and I are light and with the light aircraft we have a reasonable useful load.
I understand building light. My RV-6 weighed in at 994 when I first built it.
Building a short wing RV light does not affect stall speed that much when stall speed is measured at gross weight like the rules say.
I've certificated more than a few RVs over the last 14 years. I've also certificated several hundred LSAs.
You're still going to have a difficult time convincing me that you have an RV-6 that has a clean stall speed of less than 45 kts. @ 1320 lbs.
__________________
Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>

Last edited by Mel : 06-10-2013 at 06:14 AM.
  #13  
Old 06-10-2013, 06:28 AM
fatherson fatherson is offline
 
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Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel View Post
I've certificated more than a few RVs over the last 14 years. I've also certificated several hundred LSAs.
You're still going to have a difficult time convincing me that you have an RV-6 that has a clean stall speed of less than 45 kts. @ 1320 lbs.
Understood, Mel. I've watched with interest as this same debate has gone on several times for the RV-3 and the RV-9. You've convinced me easily that those airframes are unlikely to meet LSA standards, and so it seems obvious an RV-6 is even less likely to do so.

But you're statement above brings up a different question for me. How does any new airframe get certificated as an LSA when it hasn't yet proven it can meet those standards? It seems like a chicken and egg problem: it can only be an LSA if it's always met LSA standards, but nobody knows if it will until after it's been so designated. Even having the designer tweek it afterwards to meet the standards seems to fail the regulatory requirements. Thoughts?

--
Stephen
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father-son team building new lives and an RV-9
VAF Donors: 2008 to 2014 * Friends of the RV-1
  #14  
Old 06-10-2013, 06:39 AM
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Mel Mel is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatherson View Post
Understood, Mel. I've watched with interest as this same debate has gone on several times for the RV-3 and the RV-9. You've convinced me easily that those airframes are unlikely to meet LSA standards, and so it seems obvious an RV-6 is even less likely to do so.
But you're statement above brings up a different question for me. How does any new airframe get certificated as an LSA when it hasn't yet proven it can meet those standards? It seems like a chicken and egg problem: it can only be an LSA if it's always met LSA standards, but nobody knows if it will until after it's been so designated. Even having the designer tweek it afterwards to meet the standards seems to fail the regulatory requirements. Thoughts?
--
Stephen
SLSAs go through a test phase before being certificated as LSA. An ELSA must be a "certified" replica of an SLSA.
This is done by the kit manufacturer issuing an 8130-15 (certificate of compliance) for the kit.

For SLSAs we first issue a special flight test permit. During this phase, the aircraft is found to "meet the requirements for the certificate requested".
If it does not meet the requirements, it does not receive an airworthiness certificate.

Also the manufacturer of an SLSA submits the same 8130-15 (certificate of compliance) that the aircraft meets the requirements of LSA.
__________________
Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>

Last edited by Mel : 06-10-2013 at 06:48 AM.
  #15  
Old 06-10-2013, 07:10 AM
fatherson fatherson is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel View Post
SLSAs go through a test phase before being certificated as LSA. . .
Okay, got it. And so this doesn't affect any of the RV-3, RV-9, or now the RV-6 debates about LSA, because in each case, the airplane is actually certificated as E-AB, and then the pilot is claiming Sport Pilot privileges to fly it because it supposedly meets LSA standards, not because it's registered LSA.

Oh, what tangled webs we weave . . .

--
Stephen
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Stephen & Tyson Humphrey
father-son team building new lives and an RV-9
VAF Donors: 2008 to 2014 * Friends of the RV-1
  #16  
Old 06-10-2013, 07:21 AM
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Mel Mel is offline
 
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Location: Dallas area
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Default Exactly!

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatherson View Post
Okay, got it. And so this doesn't affect any of the RV-3, RV-9, or now the RV-6 debates about LSA, because in each case, the airplane is actually certificated as E-AB, and then the pilot is claiming Sport Pilot privileges to fly it because it supposedly meets LSA standards, not because it's registered LSA.
Oh, what tangled webs we weave . . .
--
Stephen
Yep! You got it!
__________________
Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
  #17  
Old 06-10-2013, 09:12 AM
Falcontech Falcontech is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Big Bear CA
Posts: 17
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Thanks to all of you for the discussion. The conclusion seems to be that this is not a practical thing to attempt, even if it is marginally possible.
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