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  #21  
Old 05-03-2013, 11:49 AM
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airguy airguy is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Garden City, Tx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skelrad View Post
I love the idea of putting this engine on an RV, but would have a really hard time justifying the cost. No matter how cool it is and how bad I want a diesel, unfortunately even with the decreased operating cost, you still have to pony up an astronomical amount before you even gas up the first time. A Lycoming may be more expensive to operate, but at least that cost is spread out over time as you fly. If avgas goes away completely we may not have a choice, but until then I don't think I can justify doubling the cost of my future RV.
That's me also - I've been dreaming of a turbodiesel in my place since I ordered the empennage - but I just can't justify even HALF of the advertised cost of the Deltahawk.

Maybe the next one... (sigh)
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Greg Niehues - SEL, IFR, Repairman Cert.
Garden City, TX VAF 2020 dues paid
N16GN flying 700 hrs and counting; IO360, SDS, WWRV200, Dynon HDX, 430W
Built an off-plan RV9A with too much fuel and too much HP. Should drop dead any minute now.
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  #22  
Old 05-03-2013, 02:47 PM
JP Brooks JP Brooks is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Camas, WA
Posts: 18
Default Cost of Panty Hose

Gents, the first pair of pantyhose cost over a million dollars in 1940 dollars. The first engine on my aircraft that flew exactly 10 years ago today costed well north of 5 million dollars.

As I tell my wife as I'm eyeing a lovely lady pass, "Don't worry Babe, I'm just looking at what a million dollars brought out of the 40's"

I could have easily said "I'll just accept the status quo and enjoy a nice Lycoming with the canard pusher". Thank goodness, some people think there might be a better way and risk something more than just money/reputation. I'm sure Mr. V had thoughts such as mine as well and struck out on his own defining moment. If we succeed then we will certainly change the world for the better. If we fail, then we will be just a footnote in some aircraft forum that said, "what's happened to DeltaHawk? Haven't seen anything on them in years." I'm certain of the former and will tell my grand kids someday when they ask what I did to help change the world..... As Patton said ".... I won't have to say I shoveled sh_t in Louisiana" ( although, I have shoveled plenty of the finest barnyard variety in my youth on a farm in downstate Illinois).

So, why spend 8 figures of $$$$? Diane Doers and I twisted Doug's arm to get him to design what we knew he was a genius at.... He made the statement in 1994 " I can't build this engine!...it might take three years and cost a million dollars".

JP

Last edited by JP Brooks : 05-03-2013 at 03:01 PM.
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  #23  
Old 05-03-2013, 03:54 PM
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rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Calgary, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP Brooks View Post
Gents, the first pair of pantyhose cost over a million dollars in 1940 dollars. The first engine on my aircraft that flew exactly 10 years ago today costed well north of 5 million dollars.

As I tell my wife as I'm eyeing a lovely lady pass, "Don't worry Babe, I'm just looking at what a million dollars brought out of the 40's"

I could have easily said "I'll just accept the status quo and enjoy a nice Lycoming with the canard pusher". Thank goodness, some people think there might be a better way and risk something more than just money/reputation. I'm sure Mr. V had thoughts such as mine as well and struck out on his own defining moment. If we succeed then we will certainly change the world for the better. If we fail, then we will be just a footnote in some aircraft forum that said, "what's happened to DeltaHawk? Haven't seen anything on them in years." I'm certain of the former and will tell my grand kids someday when they ask what I did to help change the world..... As Patton said ".... I won't have to say I shoveled sh_t in Louisiana" ( although, I have shoveled plenty of the finest barnyard variety in my youth on a farm in downstate Illinois).

So, why spend 8 figures of $$$$? Diane Doers and I twisted Doug's arm to get him to design what we knew he was a genius at.... He made the statement in 1994 " I can't build this engine!...it might take three years and cost a million dollars".

JP
So are you saying the price of these engines will decrease as production ramps up and R&D expenses are paid off as in the other mass produced items you mentioned above? That would be a breath of fresh air in the aviation industry.

At the current price, assuming the engines go to TBO with no work and burn 20% less fuel than a Lycoming, they don't make economic sense. The up front costs vs. fuel saved will never reach a point where they will save money over a Lycoming in the first use cycle, especially if we invest the initial savings at 5-8% compounded return.

The only markets then I see at this price are:

1. Military
2. Where avgas availability and/or price makes using diesel or Jet fuel the only game in town
3. For people who just want a diesel or something different in their planes and don't care about cost

Your posts seem pretty realistic at least and if it is really here, you will have plenty of interest (maybe not sales though). People will be waiting to see actual side by side independent tests against a Lycoming in the same airframe, then see many thousands of reliable flight hours compiled on several examples, see how Deltahawk corresponds and treats customers, how the dealer service network is set up etc. Frankly, the initial data put out by the company comparing it to a Lycoming years ago was very slanted and didn't make sense from a technical/ engineering standpoint. It hurt the credibility of the whole project in my view.

I hope it works out and the design gives people a viable second choice. I'll be following this with interest as will many others. Onwards and upwards!
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Turbo Subaru EJ22, SDS EFI, Marcotte M-300, IVO, Shorai- RV6A C-GVZX flying from CYBW since 2003- 441.0 hrs. on the Hobbs,
RV10 95% built- Sold 2016
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  #24  
Old 05-03-2013, 05:35 PM
JP Brooks JP Brooks is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Camas, WA
Posts: 18
Default Slanted?

Not saying yr wrong, but what numbers were slanted?
JP
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  #25  
Old 05-03-2013, 06:22 PM
ArlingtonRV ArlingtonRV is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Marysville, WA
Posts: 521
Default Just another data point

Apparently Glasair sees enough promise to offer it in their two weeks to taxi program in the very near future. There should also be a Delta Hawk powered Sportsman at OSH.

My Dad is planning to put one in our Sportsman, even though we have a brand new Aero Sport IO-375 sitting on the floor.

To some of the other points made, why is he doing it? Because he wants to. Is it cheaper? Probably not. Is it different? Oh yeah. With the big spinner and big scoop it should like look a turbine at first glance.

Personally, I hope they sell a million of them, or at least enough so that we can get parts for it in 5 years.
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Arlington, WA
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  #26  
Old 05-03-2013, 06:40 PM
skelrad skelrad is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Issaquah, WA
Posts: 146
Default Don't get me wrong

JP-

Please don't take my comment about the cost wrong. I am thrilled that you guys have pushed on with the design of this engine and I have always loved the idea of it and will continue to root for you! You're absolutely right that innovation and risk are what push any industry forward. I think most of us are very glad the engine is on the horizon. My point was that no matter how great it is, for many of us in the RV world, the cost will likely be a limiting factor. That doesn't mean the quality of the engine is not worth it, it just means that many may unfortunately not be able to afford it. Kind of like not being able to afford a Ferrari, even though the cost of it may be justifiable. For me, cost is cost, no matter how much I want something (and believe me, I've wanted the DH engine ever since I heard of it years ago). I do hope you guys succeed in bringing this to market though, and I really hope that someday I can afford to go this route.
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  #27  
Old 05-03-2013, 11:27 PM
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rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
 
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Location: Calgary, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP Brooks View Post
Not saying yr wrong, but what numbers were slanted?
JP

The SFC numbers didn't seem to jibe with the fuel flows claimed, the Lycoming was running way ROP and I recall they were making a cost comparison against the Lycoming changing plugs every 200 hours or something silly. In the real world, nobody I know changes aviation spark plugs on a Lycoming every 200 hours. Changing 8 plugs every 200 hours at the standard price added unrealistic costs to the Lycoming side of the comparison.

What kind of SFCs are you seeing at 135hp? (75% on a 180 Lycoming).

How many hours has the high time engine accumulated without being touched internally?

What is the installed weight of the engine wet?
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Ross Farnham, Calgary, Alberta
Turbo Subaru EJ22, SDS EFI, Marcotte M-300, IVO, Shorai- RV6A C-GVZX flying from CYBW since 2003- 441.0 hrs. on the Hobbs,
RV10 95% built- Sold 2016
http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html
http://sdsefi.com/cpi2.htm


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  #28  
Old 05-04-2013, 12:15 AM
JP Brooks JP Brooks is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Camas, WA
Posts: 18
Default Costs

Okay, I'll accept the fact you will use only one set of plugs for,the entire 1800 hours and spot you the entire amount of $1800 minus the cost of a set of eight plugs, say... $200 cost?, netting you $1600 off the difference still putting you north of $40,000 savings. Is this good for you? Well done. We apologize for being "silly".

What is the fuel flow of your TSIO-360? ...10 gals/hr? ... 11? Help me compare the numbers with you.

I know we flew the Velocity 7 hours and burned 42 total gallons... 6 g/hr?

High time engine? Ill ask Doug.

135hp. Again, I'll pull Doug away from the test cell and ask because,... It is important.

Installed weight is 15 lbs. lighter than a TSIO-360, and with modification to a part we think we can shed another 15 lbs.

JP

Last edited by JP Brooks : 05-04-2013 at 12:20 AM.
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  #29  
Old 05-04-2013, 06:42 AM
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rzbill rzbill is offline
 
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Location: Asheville, NC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP Brooks View Post
Okay, I'll accept the fact you will use only one set of plugs
JP
GOOD. The website still has this and because it is so incredibly bogus, it ruins credibility claims on the rest of the page.

In regards to fuel costs. We obviously have to accept your numbers because you hold the cards. No issue. The Lycoming data and fuel cost data are taken from reasonable sources since it comes from factory charts and industry survey data.

If fuel consumption is to be the main life cycle costing difference, then I think Ross has a point about Lycoming ROP data vs economy (peak) fuel flow data.
Sure, not everybody runs peak so I do understand the marketing angle of using ROP data.

Secondarily, since we are talking experimentals here, many run auto fuel. In order to make the cost difference zero at the ROP Lycoming fuel flow rates, autogas for $4.10 is needed. At LOP, the allowable autogas price goes higher.

Admitedly, I imagine most experimentals don't run autogas and of course certifieds don't for the most part but these competitive pressures against you still exist.

Yes when I saw this product at 2005 OSH, I wanted one very much. Inability to answer the questions "when?" and "how much?" prevented that. Now it seems availability is close but the price is out there where I cannot justify it (because I run LOP and will be using autogas shortly)
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  #30  
Old 05-04-2013, 06:44 AM
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RDOG RDOG is offline
 
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Location: Propwash Airport (16X), Texas
Posts: 136
Default DeltaHawk and the RV-14

Hi JP,
Its Colin, and it is great to hear about the DeltaHawk engine again(news was a little lacking for a while). I'm building RV-14 kit number 14. I've been waiting years to see your engine hit the mainstream aircraft market and it looks like you are inside the marker gear down and flaps to 40. Do you think you will have an option to put one on the 14? PS: I got tired of the long haul flying and went back to the 737 domestic.
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