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10-06-2006, 09:07 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: St. Paul, MN.
Posts: 4,792
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I built my flap rods the way Van's instructed. Made sure they were built correctly, installed them, and went back inside to bed and had a good night's sleep. I don't anticipate a change in that -- at least not on that subject. 
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10-06-2006, 09:19 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 818
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Pushrods
I too had some concerns about the tube size after reading the NTSB report. According to the report or Van's I don't quite remember, the hole in the fuselage was too small and "rubbed" the side wall of the pushrod down making it thinner.
There is no doubt in my mind that there is a very tin wall section where the threads are. That is the area the concerns me. I will be replacing the "factory" parts with 4130 parts.
You don't need a lathe to tap these parts on center and straight. All you need is a drill press and a good drill press vise. Place the tube in the vise and have it extend through the center hole in the drill press table, tighten vise. Place your tape drill in the chuck and drill the tube to the proper size and depth. With the tap drill extending into the tube, clamp the drill press vise down to the table. Now the chuck and the tube are aligned. Remove the tap drill and Install the tap in the chuck. Using the chuck key as the lever turn the chuck and advance the drill arbor and start tapping. Use lubricant as needed. Works like a charm.
Paul
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10-06-2006, 10:22 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 276
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Sort of on topic...
I bought my RV-8. With about two hundred hours on it, I noticed that there was a slight hitch in the motion when I raised the flaps to 0 degrees. I did a careful inspection and found that the bolt holding the rod to the back edge of the flap on one side had no nut and was trying to come loose. The only reason it didn't come loose wasbecause the force on the bolt was from the side.
More investigation revealed that the builder couldn't get the proper nut on the bolt and so used a different nut that had worked itself off. He did it correctly on the other side.
I fixed the problem and now more closely check the flap rods.
I talked to Van's about it and they told me what nut to use and pointed out that they had tested an asymetric flap condition and said there was still plenty of aileron authority to correct for one flap down and one up.
Bruce
N297NW
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10-06-2006, 10:27 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Beaver, OK
Posts: 447
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Safety Is #1 in my book
Hmmmmm this flap pushrod thing really got out of hand for some reason. All I have to say is that SAFETY IS #1 IN MY BOOK. How many of you have purchased a VAN'S RV airplane already flying??????? Those that did listen up because you have no clue who tapped the flap pushrods, you don't know if they used the right size tap, you don't know if they used the correct type of lubricant for tapping aluminum, you don't know if they were tapped in a lathe or by hand. I almost lost a very good friend because of this Flap Pushrod issue. Yes he survived and I saw the RV-6 and it was mangled to JUNK. It was in Dodge City, KS The failure caused one flap to raise and the other stayed down, it happened so fast that he had no control and it cartwheel down the runway. There is NOTHING WRONG WITH VAN'S DESIGNED FLAP PUSHROD TUBES. It is the FAULT OF THE BUILDER who tapped them incorrectly / not straight or allowed them to rub when the flaps go up or down because the hole they pass through wasn't cut big enough. Yes the round Aluminum .3125" pushrods are plenty strong as I've talked to VAN's about it and have done the math myself. How many builders have alodined or treated the insides of the aluminum pushrods to prevent corrosion??? Just like all of the other Aluminum tubes on the Airplane need treated. I've looked at 100's of RV's with the flaps down and I can't believe that some pilots fly their RV's with these pushrods rubbing or either slightly buckled or the heim joint is only engaged a few threads or not tapped straight. I've even seen some that were dented, how they got dents in them I don't know, but .031" wall thickness is just cheap. Why build a $100,000 airplane and put a .50cent piece in this area???? Does not make since to me. It's all about paying attention to detail and doing the job right the first time. Not everyone has a presision lathe either. Why put a pair of lightweight pieces of aluminum in the area,,,, what are you saving 2 ounces of weight, WOW big deal!!! With the 4130 flap pushrod tubes if machined correctly you just don't have to worry about them. The NTSB reports do not list two other failures because they were not reported,,,,no pilots license, no insurance, get the picture. Builders / flyers do whatever you want but SAFETY IS #1. It's not about saving 2 ounces of weight. Install the 4130 pushrod tubes or call Van's and order the HEX aluminum and upgrade them. The .3125" O.D. round pushrods I feel should be replaced if there is a question about them, they are fine if tapped and installed correctly. Cheap insurance in my opinion.
__________________
Alan (AJ) Judy
Beaver, OK in NO MANS LAND
RV-6 IO360A1B6 C/S Hartz 200HP ?
Also Fly North American NAVIONs
Race car engine builder/Machinist/Fabricator 1982--present.
Last edited by rv969wf : 10-09-2006 at 10:58 AM.
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10-06-2006, 10:45 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Beaver, OK
Posts: 447
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Safety #1..... for old RV planes.
Jonathon Cude my friend.... I see that you are a Mechanical & AeroSpace Engineer,,, that is great and I trust all of your input and support with your knowledge with this topic...... When someone comments about selling pre-made /// 'Suckers' selling a quality part to help SAVE someones LIFE causes concern to me! Why are you so negative??? I have seen builders do stupid stuff and the average JOE Blow builder is not familiar with machining or tapping critical parts OK... I'm talking about SAFETY here. All I'm trying to do is SAVE someone later down the road OK. IF SAFETY is not an issue with you... then.... Do what you want.. I've seen the wrecks etc... I myself would like to see ALL RV'S fly and not get into accidents!!! When accidents happen OUR INSURANCE RATES GO UP!!!!!!!!!!!!! Who wants that???????????? I'm not out to make a buck by manufacturing or selling Chrome Moly 4130 Flap Pushrod Tubes!!!! I want everyone to be safe and THAT is very important to me. Call Van's and order the HEX Aluminum or install 4130 round tubes. The old 5/16" O.D. aluminum tubes I feel, is not an area to save an ounce of weight.
__________________
Alan (AJ) Judy
Beaver, OK in NO MANS LAND
RV-6 IO360A1B6 C/S Hartz 200HP ?
Also Fly North American NAVIONs
Race car engine builder/Machinist/Fabricator 1982--present.
Last edited by rv969wf : 10-08-2006 at 12:48 PM.
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10-06-2006, 10:56 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 2,061
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by rv969wf
I'm not out to make a buck by manufacturing or selling Chrome Moly 4130 Flap Pushrod Tubes!!!!
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With all due respect, this seems a little hard to believe. At $45 a set, you will definitely turn a nice profit. There is certainly nothing wrong with that, and they look like a very nice piece, but to deny making a buck while carrying on about safety comes across as insincere.
__________________
Steve Zicree
Fullerton, Ca. w/beautiful 2.5 year old son 
RV-4 99% built  and sold 
Rag and tube project well under way
paid =VAF= dues through June 2013
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10-06-2006, 11:17 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Beaver, OK
Posts: 447
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Hmmmmmmm
When I machine and prep anything or a pair of 4130 Flap Pushrod tubes to custom length and powder coat them I spend 2 hours on a pair of Flap Pushrods..OK.. $45 is cheap for two hours of work plus material this and that. If a person CNC'd these things in mass quantity the cost would be very low. I will not send out a part that is not quality or to spec. I've seen builders get in a hurry and slop around with quality work. NOT GOOD.. I mostly Blueprint and Build engines and there is NO room for error on anything.... I don't care what the part is..... With Airplanes or Anything,,, Safety is firsts.... I don't think this is an area to save 2 ounces of weight on the airplane.
__________________
Alan (AJ) Judy
Beaver, OK in NO MANS LAND
RV-6 IO360A1B6 C/S Hartz 200HP ?
Also Fly North American NAVIONs
Race car engine builder/Machinist/Fabricator 1982--present.
Last edited by rv969wf : 10-08-2006 at 12:52 PM.
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10-07-2006, 01:00 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: KS
Posts: 57
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So I ran the numbers 10 days ago, posted them finally at 4 am this morning. It was coincidental that a pre-made source became available. Yes I am almost (December 16, 2006) an Aerospace and Mechanical Engineer from Oklahoma State University.
My motive was to shed light on the part and offer up my findings to the building community. I must admit, I rarely post but often read messages due to the large amounts of oppinion data presented and rather small amount of proven data submitted (how ironic, I just presented my oppinion here... I hope this comment doesn't start a new thread!!!)
To Alan Judy of Beaver, OK:
1. My post was meant to inform, not bash any parts vendor.
2. Given your parts for sale, I actually figured this would generate positive interest in your rods not negative.
3. Suckers is a nuetral adjective used in my dialect to describe many things. (being from OKLAHOMA, Alan, you should take no offense... as none was intended)... the term has also been removed from my previous post when referring to your parts.
4. Overkill is a term I stand by... and used by yourself as well.
__________________
Jonathan Cude
EAA 980 Fearless President
Mechanical and Aerospace Engineer
SedanFloral.com
RV-7A :: Penn Yan XS-IO-360 :: Tip-Up :: SkyView
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10-07-2006, 01:03 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: KS
Posts: 57
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In your messages and your classified add you draw attention to your desires:
1. Safety --> your part increases safety margins... Great!
2. Experienced Machinist since 1982 --> as stated in your classified add, I am humbly going to have to question your skills as you claim 2 hours per pair.
3. Not making a buck --> your own fault, but I am willing to help, for FREE, with engineering suggestions to increase your efficiency to hopefully reduce your selling price. Your margins CAN GO UP AND YOUR SELLING PRICE CAN GO DOWN. From an economics standpoint this would ultimately increase the number of your units entering the field and helping ensure this part never fails, thereby increasing safety and ?reducing insurance rates? (what a mouthful!)
To Alan and All: I believe this part to be worth paying attention to, that is why I took the time to analize it. Thank you all for allowing me to express this, hopefully it will help to increase builder awareness in this area.
P.S. Is there a size limit to these posts? anything over about 2 paragraphs won't go through!!! again sorry for having to break the messages up...
__________________
Jonathan Cude
EAA 980 Fearless President
Mechanical and Aerospace Engineer
SedanFloral.com
RV-7A :: Penn Yan XS-IO-360 :: Tip-Up :: SkyView
Last edited by Jonathan Cude : 10-07-2006 at 01:07 AM.
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10-07-2006, 05:26 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Payson, AZ
Posts: 436
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jonathan Cude
...P.S. Is there a size limit to these posts? anything over about 2 paragraphs won't go through!!! again sorry for having to break the messages up...
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Perhaps our administrator (MR Doug Reeves) can help you here. There may be a limit but you surely have not reached it with your posts. Some of our regulars are quite prolific in their posts and I have seen them an order of magnitude longer than yours.
-mike
__________________
Michael L Wilson
Resuming building after a 4ish year hiatus! (life got in the way)
N194MW (reserved) RV9A SB
VAF# 148
Payson, AZ
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