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  #1  
Old 03-28-2013, 12:11 PM
AL_O_Dine AL_O_Dine is offline
 
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Location: US
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Default Buying a project & FAA

What are the rules regarding purchasing a partially completed kit as far as the FAA is concerned?

At what point are you no longer considered the actual "builder?"

For example, you buy a Vans RV9 kit where the guy completed the wings and most of the fuselage.

Can you claim yourself as "the manufacturer" still?

Or is it just a big gray area?

This is for builders in the US.

Last edited by AL_O_Dine : 03-28-2013 at 12:11 PM. Reason: Clarification
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  #2  
Old 03-28-2013, 12:40 PM
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Vern Vern is offline
 
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Default Multiple builders

Not grey at all.

You can have a string of builders as long as the project meets the 51% rule. Even projects almost ready for inspection can be bought and completed by you. Be sure to get all records and previous photos, receipts, builder's logs, etc
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Last edited by Vern : 03-29-2013 at 04:52 AM.
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  #3  
Old 03-28-2013, 12:43 PM
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Mike S Mike S is offline
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Default

No problem, it is what I did.
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Mike Starkey
VAF 909

Rv-10, N210LM.

Flying as of 12/4/2010

Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011

Sold after 240+ wonderful hours of flight.

"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
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  #4  
Old 03-28-2013, 12:52 PM
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longranger longranger is offline
 
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vern View Post
Not grey at all.

You can have a string of builders as long as you meet the 51% rule. Even projects almost ready for inspection can be bought and completed by you. Be sure to get all records and previous photos, receipts, builder's logs, etc
To be clear, it's the airplane that has to meet the 51% rule, not "you". If 15,000 individual amateur builders each drive one rivet in an airplane, the airplane can still qualifiy for an airworthiness certificate in the Experimental Amateur Built category. None of those builders however would be qualified to do a condition inspection on it(assuming they don't hold an A&P or IA).
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1955 Cessna 170B flying since 1982

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  #5  
Old 03-28-2013, 02:30 PM
AL_O_Dine AL_O_Dine is offline
 
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by longranger View Post
To be clear, it's the airplane that has to meet the 51% rule, not "you". If 15,000 individual amateur builders each drive one rivet in an airplane, the airplane can still qualifiy for an airworthiness certificate in the Experimental Amateur Built category. None of those builders however would be qualified to do a condition inspection on it(assuming they don't hold an A&P or IA).
So then the question is, are you only entitled to the repairman certification if you did the entire project?
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  #6  
Old 03-28-2013, 02:44 PM
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Mike S Mike S is offline
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AL_O_Dine View Post
So then the question is, are you only entitled to the repairman certification if you did the entire project?
No..............
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VAF 909

Rv-10, N210LM.

Flying as of 12/4/2010

Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011

Sold after 240+ wonderful hours of flight.

"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
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  #7  
Old 03-28-2013, 02:50 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
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The answer to this question, about the Repairman certificate, is that it varies from FSDO to FSDO. They will want to see that you have "substantial" knowledge about the inner workings of the plane, and that you participated in a reasonable amount of the work. For example, if a group of 5 built it, from start to finish, the group must choose one person to receive the Repairman certificate. The FAA will definitely not issue more than one. In the case of a substantially built project, you will get varying responses, depending on where you live. Call the FSDO.
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  #8  
Old 03-28-2013, 04:52 PM
AL_O_Dine AL_O_Dine is offline
 
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Default Repairman Cert

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner View Post
The answer to this question, about the Repairman certificate, is that it varies from FSDO to FSDO. They will want to see that you have "substantial" knowledge about the inner workings of the plane, and that you participated in a reasonable amount of the work. For example, if a group of 5 built it, from start to finish, the group must choose one person to receive the Repairman certificate. The FAA will definitely not issue more than one. In the case of a substantially built project, you will get varying responses, depending on where you live. Call the FSDO.
Or I guess, it depends on how deep your wallet is for some. Here is an interesting post from William Wynne about days gone by and signing off on airworthiness applications. You can read the full post on his fly corvair site. It is in the January 13 section. Search for the words "hired gun" and that will take you to the referenced section.

I quote from it......"While it isn?t right, keep in mind that there is absolutely nothing illegal about professionally building planes or paying magazine editors to write lies about them. The only actual crime in the system was the owners signing the FAA airworthyness application and claiming it wasn?t built for hire. The form said the fine was up to $10K for making a false statement. When you understand what a trivial amount of money that was to these people you understand why they all signed it. Plus, in all the years of thousands of people lying through their teeth to DARs, no one ever got turned in. Part of the reason for this was the DARs made so much money, they of all people were never going to blow the whistle on anyone. The only thing that ever slowed the system down was Mooney, who couldn?t sell planes, started making a lot of noise about the FAA not enforcing the rules. The got an advisory circular published, but all Mooney had on their side was being right, they didn?t bring any pay off money, and that was what the system operated on.".................
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  #9  
Old 03-28-2013, 05:24 PM
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Sam Buchanan Sam Buchanan is offline
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Location: North Alabama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AL_O_Dine View Post
Or I guess, it depends on how deep your wallet is for some. Here is an interesting post from William Wynne about days gone by and signing off on airworthiness applications. You can read the full post on his fly corvair site. It is in the January 13 section. Search for the words "hired gun" and that will take you to the referenced section.

I quote from it......"While it isn?t right, keep in mind that there is absolutely nothing illegal about professionally building planes or paying magazine editors to write lies about them. The only actual crime in the system was the owners signing the FAA airworthyness application and claiming it wasn?t built for hire. The form said the fine was up to $10K for making a false statement. When you understand what a trivial amount of money that was to these people you understand why they all signed it. Plus, in all the years of thousands of people lying through their teeth to DARs, no one ever got turned in. Part of the reason for this was the DARs made so much money, they of all people were never going to blow the whistle on anyone. The only thing that ever slowed the system down was Mooney, who couldn?t sell planes, started making a lot of noise about the FAA not enforcing the rules. The got an advisory circular published, but all Mooney had on their side was being right, they didn?t bring any pay off money, and that was what the system operated on.".................
Well, guess posting a message like this is one way to develop a warm fuzzy relationship with your local DAR/FSDO........

Good luck getting the repairman's certificate.
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  #10  
Old 03-28-2013, 05:45 PM
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Mel Mel is offline
 
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Actually the 51% rule is for the aircraft itself. It must be 51% amateur-built.

The requirement for the repairman certificate is only to be a "principal builder" and convince the FAA that you have sufficient knowledge to adequately conduct the condition inspection.

This IS the rule and should not vary between FSDOs.
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