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03-22-2013, 04:12 PM
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pocahontas MS
Posts: 3,884
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Interesting comment about 'marketing disaster'. You can find less disastrous *looking* web sites for aviation products, some (a lot) of which are much more disastrous for purchasers of the products marketed there.
Here's a rough quote of something buried in the Real World Solutions web site, if you really do your research:
'We fly what we sell.'
That's pretty strong marketing, in this market, and not something that many suppliers can honestly claim. Know your supplier. And if you don't have the skill set or know someone who does, it's better to stay away from alternative engines (& maybe, experimentals in general).
In my opinion, the real reason alternative engines have such a bad rep is not the engine; it's the builder (and unqualified/unethical systems suppliers).
Just hoping I don't add to the bad rep....
Charlie
Renesis FWF in progress on a -7
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03-22-2013, 06:49 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Calgary, Canada
Posts: 5,766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AL_O_Dine
That is good advice indeed.
It seems like Marcotte has a basically solid product. It would be a shame to see it disappear when he retires. Why reinvent the wheel when you have a product that is very workable within reasonable limits.
Don't get me started on Real World Solutions website. A marketing disaster as far as experimental aviation product goes. Ughhh
I was actively exchanging emails with Phyllis at Geared Drives regarding the LS1 engine. But unfortunately, both her and her father Bud, were killed in that plane crash not long ago. The website is still up, but not updated because nobody else had the passwords to access it. So it just hangs out there in cyberland like a ghost. Bud was the main man with the development. And his daughter was the main administrative person. With both of them gone now, it's unlikely to progress.
Well if Marcotte is interested in selling the rights to make the gearboxes, you may be in a good position to keep the ball rolling if you are so inclined. Certainly better than coming up with a design from scratch.
It would be interesting to find out from him the customer list and who actually has them flying as of 2013.
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RWS is a solid company run by an honest, straight shooting and well respected engineer who flies what he sells, issues SBs and ships out new parts if something is not right at his expense. Few if any existing FF parts suppliers can make any of those claims. I'd be less concerned about "marketing" in the conventional sense and far more concerned about background and real world results if you will pardon the pun. Tracy Crook is one of the few shining stars in this business who is not only still around after more than a decade in the business but also respected by his clients.
Geared Drives was acquired by a new owner a few months back, not sure what is happening there. He will have to put some fine people in place to replace Bud and Phyllis and make it all fly again- probably a big task. In the case of these gearboxes, I'll again stress that a successful V8 gearbox design does not translate to one that works on a four necessarily. The TV issues are far worse in the latter case and the de-clutch arrangement does nothing to solve the typical TV issues occurring at F2. Bud while a very talented guy, was not a professional engineer to my knowledge and no TV testing or analysis was done on his gearbox designs.
I am not inclined to look into picking up the Marcotte design/ manufacturing rights, too many projects on the burner and I don't have the money anymore to invest in making it what it should be. Guy probably does not know who is currently flying his PRSUs. I'd join Flysoob and poll the members there. Most users had Subaru engines I believe. Some people have posted some of the problems they have seen with these boxes over the years.
The most proven PSRUs for Subarus were the Parnham and RAF belt drives. Both designs have a couple hundred thousand flight hours on them to date.
Last edited by rv6ejguy : 03-23-2013 at 01:26 AM.
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03-22-2013, 11:09 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Vacaville, CA
Posts: 167
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There are very few good options for PSRU's out there. I think the Eggenfellner Gen3 with a dual mass flywheel is a very reliable option. There are many flying (maybe 100?) with no catastrophic failures. I have 560 hours on mine. The dual mass flywheel seems to act like a damper and preserves the gearbox. The only issues have been with non dual mass installations and they were not catastrophic failures. Too bad Jan didn't stick with the 4 cylinder package. With the right combination of parts it's a great engine, PSRU, and prop for an RV.
-Andy
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03-23-2013, 12:08 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 08A
Posts: 9,500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simpkinsona
There are very few good options for PSRU's out there. I think the Eggenfellner Gen3 with a dual mass flywheel is a very reliable option. There are many flying (maybe 100?) with no catastrophic failures. I have 560 hours on mine. The dual mass flywheel seems to act like a damper and preserves the gearbox. The only issues have been with non dual mass installations and they were not catastrophic failures. Too bad Jan didn't stick with the 4 cylinder package. With the right combination of parts it's a great engine, PSRU, and prop for an RV.-Andy
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You don't have a dual mass flywheel, and it's not a damper.
__________________
Dan Horton
RV-8 SS
Barrett IO-390
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03-23-2013, 01:39 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Calgary, Canada
Posts: 5,766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simpkinsona
There are very few good options for PSRU's out there. I think the Eggenfellner Gen3 with a dual mass flywheel is a very reliable option. There are many flying (maybe 100?) with no catastrophic failures. I have 560 hours on mine. The dual mass flywheel seems to act like a damper and preserves the gearbox. The only issues have been with non dual mass installations and they were not catastrophic failures. Too bad Jan didn't stick with the 4 cylinder package. With the right combination of parts it's a great engine, PSRU, and prop for an RV.
-Andy
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There have been catastrophic failures of the Gen 3 boxes. Do you remember the one that ended up on federal land last year? "Very reliable" is not the words I'd use to describe these boxes. Broken welds, broken input shafts, disintegrating flywheels, bearings shedding metal, leaking seals, serious F1 kickback for a good percentage of users etc.
I am glad your box is working well with over 500 hours on it, many others have not been so fortunate.
I do agree that Jan should have stuck with the fours and that with the right combination of parts, they can work well and be more competitive in the weight department.
I am glad to see your post here so people can see that there are successes. You are happy and stuck with it unlike many others. 
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03-23-2013, 11:58 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: US
Posts: 39
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Marketing
Quote:
Originally Posted by rv7charlie
Interesting comment about 'marketing disaster'. You can find less disastrous *looking* web sites for aviation products, some (a lot) of which are much more disastrous for purchasers of the products marketed there.
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True enough I imagine. But if you have a product that works well and are standing behind it with good support, it baffles me that many just drop the ball on marketing it effectively. It's almost like they are saying, well, we really don't want THAT much money coming in.
But I digress.
Agreed that any alternative engine is going to eat up a lot of extra time on projects. A solid FWF setup instead of piece meal stuff would go a long way to helping expand our options.
William Wynne seems to have managed it with the Corvair setup he has developed. No dreaded PSRU to deal with on that since it is direct drive.
The biggest draw of the alternative engines is probably cost. Who really wants to shell out 25-35 grand for an engine. I don't relish writing that check.
But lots of time and cost is wasted on alternatives because few really come up with a FWF complete workable reliable setup. And many spend more time tinkering with it, rather than out flying. Or those people who claim to have workable and reliable setup, don't share the information. So you are just left with bits and pieces of sketchy information on how "they" did it. But nothing really concrete.
I understand why Vans only recommends the engines he does for the RVs.
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03-23-2013, 04:14 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Calgary, Canada
Posts: 5,766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AL_O_Dine
True enough I imagine. But if you have a product that works well and are standing behind it with good support, it baffles me that many just drop the ball on marketing it effectively. It's almost like they are saying, well, we really don't want THAT much money coming in.
But I digress.
Agreed that any alternative engine is going to eat up a lot of extra time on projects. A solid FWF setup instead of piece meal stuff would go a long way to helping expand our options.
William Wynne seems to have managed it with the Corvair setup he has developed. No dreaded PSRU to deal with on that since it is direct drive.
The biggest draw of the alternative engines is probably cost. Who really wants to shell out 25-35 grand for an engine. I don't relish writing that check.
But lots of time and cost is wasted on alternatives because few really come up with a FWF complete workable reliable setup. And many spend more time tinkering with it, rather than out flying. Or those people who claim to have workable and reliable setup, don't share the information. So you are just left with bits and pieces of sketchy information on how "they" did it. But nothing really concrete.
I understand why Vans only recommends the engines he does for the RVs.
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Heavy marketing does not work on products like these IMO. These are low demand, low production pieces by nature. Tracy is basically saying here is what I offer, here is the track record, if you need the piece, I'd be happy to sell it to you. You can't really sell a PSRU to someone who doesn't need it.
WW had his share of failures in the early days and learned a lot that he didn't know to begin with even though he always called himself the "Corvair Authority". Not using the factory forged, nitrided cranks in his engines initially was foolish, regrinding 110 cranks without proper attention to the fillets was another mistake. Some of the other recommendations are just a waste of money IMO as an ex- builder of these engines for performance and racing use.
These days, they seem reasonably reliable but not exactly cheap any more and they don't work for RVs.
Cost is the big factor usually and the successful conversions cost a fraction to acquire and overhaul. The unsuccessful ones are certainly more expensive as people end up buying the traditional engine in most cases anyway.
Things have progressed quite a bit in the last 5 years I think. We have many successful VW, Corvair, Subaru and V8 conversions flying now. It is important to follow a proven recipe however. Most of the mistakes have been made by someone else before so there is no need for a new guy to repeat them. Join the appropriate forum and get the right information before you start down this path.
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03-24-2013, 09:42 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: US
Posts: 39
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Marketing
Quote:
Originally Posted by rv6ejguy
Heavy marketing does not work on products like these IMO. These are low demand, low production pieces by nature. Tracy is basically saying here is what I offer, here is the track record, if you need the piece, I'd be happy to sell it to you. You can't really sell a PSRU to someone who doesn't need it.
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True. But we could flip that and say then, why do any marketing at all? Not everyone drinks coffee. Why have any internet presence at all? Just go with word of mouth advertising. And I am sure some do, and are perfectly fine with the few sales they get trickling in.
No matter how small your market may be, it is still "x" number of potential buyers each year. And new people getting into aviation each generation who may not be familiar at all with your product, experience, etc. So why not do your best to capture that market.
Too many websites are just a jumble of information and hyperlinks upon hyperlinks. It would really benefit many to get a much better handle on their websites, marketing and keep them properly updated.
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03-24-2013, 10:12 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Calgary, Canada
Posts: 5,766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AL_O_Dine
True. But we could flip that and say then, why do any marketing at all? Not everyone drinks coffee. Why have any internet presence at all? Just go with word of mouth advertising. And I am sure some do, and are perfectly fine with the few sales they get trickling in.
No matter how small your market may be, it is still "x" number of potential buyers each year. And new people getting into aviation each generation who may not be familiar at all with your product, experience, etc. So why not do your best to capture that market.
Too many websites are just a jumble of information and hyperlinks upon hyperlinks. It would really benefit many to get a much better handle on their websites, marketing and keep them properly updated.
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A web presence is important these days for sure if you make or sell any product or service. In the case of RWS, the website and WOM work well. Almost every Wankel powered aircraft built in the last 10 years uses one of their PSRUs and many use their ECU as well to my knowledge.
People in the market for such products usually find the main players pretty quickly. Letting your site go stale or offline is certainly shooting yourself in the foot and makes people second guess your stability. If you have viable competitors, you will likely lose sales. In the case of RWS, he has no serious competitors and a great rep, simply no need to waste a ton of money marketing.
What we see on other less scrupulous vendor's sites often has little basis in reality but many people fall for hype and shiny new products even if they are not very good. The alternative FF path is littered with broken promises and broken, useless parts to a large degree. If your only concern is the sell stuff to make money short term, with no regard to treating customers truthfully and fairly, you can make money for a while but you will ultimately fail. Dozens of deceitful vendors have found this out.
Marketing mass appeal products is far different from low production, specialty items with regards to return on advertising. I have run such a business for almost 20 years and I can tell you that lots of conventional marketing ideas are simply money down the drain.
One thing that hasn't changed is treating customers truthfully, fairly and giving them good service. Customers will be happy to return again and tell their friends. Surprisingly, many businesses simply don't understand that basic concept. So, out of 7 main Subaru FF component suppliers in the last 10 years who have come along, none remain today. This is why most of the latest build Sube powered aircraft are one offs.
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03-25-2013, 12:09 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: US
Posts: 39
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Marcotte, RWS
Quote:
Originally Posted by rv6ejguy
A web presence is important these days for sure if you make or sell any product or service. In the case of RWS, the website and WOM work well....
One thing that hasn't changed is treating customers truthfully, fairly and giving them good service. Customers will be happy to return again and tell their friends. Surprisingly, many businesses simply don't understand that basic concept. So, out of 7 main Subaru FF component suppliers in the last 10 years who have come along, none remain today. This is why most of the latest build Sube powered aircraft are one offs.
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Yes. Customer service. Wouldn't it be great if we had a ton more of that.
Subaru drove off. But I guess a Viking ship has arrived. Does the ship have holes in it? Time will tell.
Unfortunately, experimental aviation being what it is, anyone can pitch a tent, sell products and make claims. Ultimately many buyers become the product testers, and with some items, that is definitely not a good thing.
As far as websites, even Vans was guilty of being behind the times on their website design for quite a while. But at least they have some standardization and logical flow of information.
I can't say the same for RWS's website. I have been looking at a lot of it. But I have not seen any recent updates other than on the main page with the green section about parts. The rest of the site seems to be a ghost town of old posts and no updates. Even on his own plane. The "most recent" dates I keep seeing go back to 2003- 2005. Yikes.
So if I were a new person to Oshkosh and got interested and wound up on his web page, it certainly would not fill me with confidence that all was well behind the scenes. It's fine if you are in the know and have done your asking around and research. But anyone new looking at that, it is not going to make a good impression. So he is shooting himself in the foot with that in regards to new viewers who may not have the lowdown on who is who yet. even if after the fact, they hear good things, that initial impression may leave lingering doubts.
Even their customer list with links to their customer's websites is not up to date. More than half of them are dead or useless links.
Such is life in the online world though.
Oshkosh is fun and interesting. But if you are going to get involved, you really have to do your research on vendors or you could wind up throwing a lot of cash out the window, or worse.
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