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03-16-2013, 12:36 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Pentwater, MI
Posts: 17
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Medical Self-Certification
Although the lack of need for an FAA medical is a large force behind LSAs, I doubt it will go away if they allow self-certification for the Private license - reason being, even a ready built RV-12 is cheaper than a new 172 or Piper whatever - AND, apart form the extra two seats, the RV outperforms the Cessna and Piper on almost every count.
I owned a PA-28 for 12 years. I loved the plane but when maintaining my medical became too expensive, I just sold the airplane. Friends mentioned LSAs, but I thought they would be slow and not very practical - then I saw the specs on the RV-12! It is faster than my Cherokee, performs better, burns half the fuel - and the fuel is cheaper! Not to mention it comes with a glass cockpit and auto-pilot! Just to add those items to the Cherokee would probably cost more than an RV-12 kit!
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03-16-2013, 01:42 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Hansville, Washington
Posts: 536
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If you want an even better comparison, compare the Cherokee 140 with the 160 hp conversion with the RV-9A - both airplanes with the same Lyc O-320 160 hp engine. Check out the Field Lengths, Rate of Climb, Cruise speed etc. The RV-9A numbers are sometimes double or triple those of the Cherokee.
On the other hand, the Cherokee has a lot of space in the back seat for golf clubs, fishing and hunting gear, etc.
If the FAA approves the AOPA/EAA medical proposal, I could see maybe going for an RV-9A as much as I like my RV-12..... or maybe even a Cherokee......
Bob Bogash
N737G
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03-16-2013, 03:40 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Dallas, TX (ADS)
Posts: 2,180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NASA515
If the FAA approves the AOPA/EAA medical proposal, I could see maybe going for an RV-9A as much as I like my RV-12..... or maybe even a Cherokee......
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RV-4 for me. Money is in the bank, waiting.
TODR
__________________
Doug "The Other Doug Reeves" Reeves
CTSW N621CT - SOLD but not forgotten
Home Bases LBX, BZN
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03-16-2013, 06:51 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 2,820
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Limey,
If self certification goes through I think the main competition for new LSAs will be used Cessna 172s and Cherokees. They are more expensive to operate than LSAs, but initial investment will be lower and they offer about 400 lbs more useful load than typical LSAs. I love my 12, but my wife still wants our Cherokee to haul her luggage!
Rich
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03-16-2013, 09:01 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: minnesota USA
Posts: 10
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I hear a lot of pilots say if the EAA/AOPA proposal goes thru it will hurt LSA sales. If your looking for a new aircraft the LSA is a great value when compared to a new skyhawk at double the money. The proposal will have little effect on LSA sales.
I can guarantee you from being in the business that any pilot in the position to purchase a new LSA has no interest in a $40000.00 skyhawk.
That buyer has no interest in faded orange or green paint together with a 40 year old beat interior. Even a brand new skyhawk looks pretty dated next to a new LSA.
The EAA/AOPA would be a big win win for GA. The pilot who cant afford a new LSA and doesnt have a medical is not flying at all. With pilot numbers decreasing fast and airports and towers closing we need these pilots to keep GA alive.
Current pilots who dont support these things are a big part of GAs problem and should rethink their position.
Jake
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03-16-2013, 09:19 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Texas, Fort Worth
Posts: 1,237
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Synergy
IMHO Factory built RV12s will be good for all RV12 builders. It's sets a price standard for the rest of us. When discussing price with a perspective buyer we can just say look what the new ones sell for. Even though ours can't be used for training we will have some advantages like owner maintenance. Think of them as factory certified used cars. Changes will be incorporated in the design over a period of time for the better for the reasons stated by Bob. I'm looking forward to a different new rear window. I guarantee that's going to be a problem with new buyers.
Who's going to buy that plane. Mostly older, retired, no medical pilots who want a turn key plane. So when the FBO trashes the rear window they will not be very happy.
Synergy is starting from scratch in this new indevor. They are going to have a lot of details to figure out. When a customer forks out $115,000.00 they will want good customer service and a good warrantee. Not to mention dealing with the FAA and the liability issues. Right now you can't get a delivery date from them at all. It could be May before they deliver their first plane. Once you leave the factory who's going to provide the warrantee service on the plane? They will figure these things out but it will take time. Right now there are some customers willing to wait similar to a really cool car coming on the market that every body wants but only a few at a time show up at you local dealership and they are already sold at full price or maybe more. So this market is good for us.  The reality is, contrary to what you might think the price should be, in order to be successful in this type of business you have to sell the planes well above what we all think is a fair price. So I can see the price going up higher than what they are now once they get all the kinks worked out. Again good for us! 
Training in the RV12 is a lot different than training in Cessna's or Piper's. Those aircraft can take a beating and keep on going and going. If you have older, good, experienced, flight instructors then the RV12 will work. But the problem is most of our flight instructors are younger, low time, low experienced, and they don't care about the equipment they are using. They are only there till they can get a better job. Remember the RV12 is a cross between a glider and a C152. It not a flying brick and requires a certain amount of finesse when being flown.
This all being said with the right kind of business plan I think that the factory RV12 will be a success as seen with the ELSA version. 
__________________
John
RV12 N1212K
Flying Since June 2010
1020 Hours as of 9/30/2017
Johnrv12@icloud.com
RV14 Wing, arrived and building at Rdog's new Hanger at 16X
S/N 140014
Last edited by Jetguy : 03-16-2013 at 09:21 PM.
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03-16-2013, 10:50 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sonoma County
Posts: 3,821
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RFSchaller
Limey,
If self certification goes through I think the main competition for new LSAs will be used Cessna 172s and Cherokees. They are more expensive to operate than LSAs, but initial investment will be lower and they offer about 400 lbs more useful load than typical LSAs. I love my 12, but my wife still wants our Cherokee to haul her luggage!
Rich
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Nobody ever parks an airplane because of initial investment. They park it because of the price of fuel first. Then they look at hangar costs..... and amount of use.
The RV12 has an answer for each of those problems.
__________________
VAF #897 Warren Moretti
2019 =VAF= Dues PAID
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03-17-2013, 10:33 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Clearwater, Florida
Posts: 398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NASA515
. . . "hopefully, some of these improvements will flow into the kit side of the business. Some will even help the item mentioned above - Maintainability after completion." . . .
Bob Bogash
N737G
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Bob,
You bring up some very good points. I hope someone at Van's will read your comments and suggestions.
Furthermore, I think Van should consider hiring you as a "product improvement consultant." It would be money well spent by them and produce a more attractive RV-12 kit for potential, first time builders.
Taking care of the machine, after it is assembled, is an important consideration and should not be minimized by manufacturers.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Drifty
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03-17-2013, 11:18 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Pentwater, MI
Posts: 17
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This is a great discussion on the pro and cons of both the LSA category and self-certification for medicals!
I have never figured out why I am able to drive a pickup truck with an 11,000lb trailer (my RV!) but the FAA is worried that I might instantly keel over from colon cancer that was removed nine years ago! The FAA insists I should prove myself cancer-free on an annual basis - even my doctors now say I only need a colonoscopy (the only method to prove I am cancer free) every FIVE years!
However, even if they do allow self certification for all GA pilots, I would still gravitate towards the -12. The cost of acquisition (kit) and operation (fuel) is more than enough for me to overcome the lower speed and carrying capability. And cruising at 120mph and 25mpg ain't too shabby!
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03-17-2013, 11:52 AM
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 132
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As a sport pilot flying for almost 4 years the biggest argument I heard is that a new LSA is much more then a good used 172 or 152. Where I learned to fly the highest cost LSA was $95 per hour, when buying a 10 hour block which resulted in a 10% discount. Now I fly at a field much closer to home in a Skycatcher for $119 per hour. A new Skycatcher is $150K whole most other LSA's are around $125K.
It is the new price and service on a Rotax that makes a LSA difficult to get for a FBO, secondly with a lot of the LSA's being built in Europe (as they had the micro rule 19 years ago) the Euro to Dollar ratio does not help us. Imagine buying a LSA 10 years ago when the dollar was much stronger the prices might have been around $75K very different story.
Another point I still hear after almost 8 years of sport pilot license; you can't go any where with a sport license, no more than 50 miles form your home field. As with many things in business it is all about marketing and EAA and AOPA (AOPA is more interested in high end GA) should do more of it.
Peter
__________________
Peter
See my builders log, I received the tail kit on February 2011, still working on it. I need more free time  Dues paid for 2017
http://www.mykitlog.com/PeterRV12/
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