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POSTING RULES

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03-12-2013, 07:04 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Mojave
Posts: 4,652
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hill
I don't agree with your approach here due to the fact that not all RVs are equiped the same way...
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I'm not talking about an indicator mounted to the panel, I'm talking about the angle of attack of the wing - it's an attempt to bring to light a critical element of ground school/flight instruction that apparently isn't taught anymore.
And I'm certainly not trying to get people to "abandon" anything... I hope to "add" comprehension. i.e., the tenuous link between IAS, bank angle, and AOA. I don't mean to sound elitist, but it will come off that way... If a moron like me gets this stuff and the population at large does not, we're in trouble.
__________________
WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.
Michael Robinson
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Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
RV-8 - SDS CPI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C
Last edited by Toobuilder : 03-12-2013 at 07:07 PM.
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03-12-2013, 07:12 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Del Rio
Posts: 124
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There is no need to bug out...the point of this thread is to provide flight techniques or training techniques which people can use to stay safe. I sincerely hope that if you have some techniques that help you fly better, you will post them so the rest of us can use them if they fit our skill level and comfort level. I say that to all followers of this thread.
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03-12-2013, 07:27 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Battleground
Posts: 4,348
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Don't bail on us yet Michael.
I decided to try to emulate an overshoot, aggressive pull, and stall/ spin entry. I started with a few clearing turns at 3000' lined up on a 90 to a railroad that was my phantom runway. First off, it is really hard to get slow at altitude, get into landing approach attitude, and keep your speed down. It is just not natural at altitude. After a bit of practice I was able to achieve what I felt was a good approximation of an overshoot base to final.
I had a few things going for me, or against me, in the test. I was relatively light on fuel, no passenger or baggage, so nowhere near gross. I am also cg forward naturally with my IO360 and heavy BA prop. It is also about 40 deg. f so my DA is low.
I started 70mph indicated (my stall is around 53 or so) full flaps, throttle idle and pitched/turned simulating my approach at approx. 30 deg of bank then pulled. no luck. Even with 2.5 g pull I just made a really tight circles with only a little altitude loss.
I worked down in steps and finally at 60mph indicated a 2.1g pull produced The stall. There was really no buffet, just a loud and sharp shake, harder and sharper than a normal stall, then dropped a wing immediately. Recovery was a simple relax in back pressure. I lost 250ft. I did not let a spin develop. It may have gone 1/2 or 3/4 turn. I did this in both directions and it behaved the same.
I have done departure stalls, turning stalls, power on and off with both, but never a simulated approach stall. I need to repeat my testing at gross and compare the difference. I am sure it will be much easier to produce the stall.
These where fun to practice and I intend to do more.
PS - I am proficient in stall, unusual attitude, and spin recovery in my 6. I conducted my test near a small airfield, in a rural area, free of any airways, and at altitudes that allowed safe recovery. I announced my intentions on the nearest ctaf and scanned for traffic after each event. This is a safety oriented thread.
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Smart People do Stupid things all the time. I know, I've seen me do'em.
RV6 - Builder/Flying
Bucker Jungmann
Fiat G.46 -(restoration in progress, if I have enough life left in me)
RV1 - Proud Pilot.
Last edited by JonJay : 03-12-2013 at 07:37 PM.
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03-12-2013, 08:59 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Mojave
Posts: 4,652
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I appreciate the attempt at inclusion, but I tend to call it like I see it. And telling people flying is safe as long as you follow the rules or compile an extensive list of personal limitations is complete BS. This is an inherently dangerous activity that requires skill and understanding to accomplish. Your beloved airplanes will try kill you on every flight and the more skill and understanding you have, the better chance you have of beating them. And yes, there are some pilots on this forum and out loose in the world that should not fly with passengers or beyond the airfield fence. There, I said it. I get the fact that this does not mesh well with the modern soccer team mentality where everyone is a "co captain" and every player gets a trophy... But I digress.
I'm no longer sure what this thread intends to accomplish, but if I can figure it out and have something that doesn't offend half the population, I'll give it another shot.
Until then...
__________________
WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.
Michael Robinson
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Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
RV-8 - SDS CPI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C
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03-12-2013, 10:09 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sonoma County
Posts: 3,821
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Martin
When we do our basic training quite a bit of time is spent on stalls. In Canada we also do basic spin recovery training as well. However we do not do base to final stall training. All of the stall training that I remember was at an almost ridiculously high nose attitude. I think it would be fair to say that we are programmed to avoid ridiculous high, low speed, nose attitudes. This is not what happens in the base to final turn stall. Our nose is low on the horizon, we are descending, power off, and in the back of our mind, our training, tells us we are ok because our nose is down. Nothing bad can happen.
As has been mentioned previously in this thread, a crosswind, with a bit of inside rudder correction and the stage has been set. Distractions, and the "need" to fly a perfect straight in approach, as per our training, ultimately gets many good pilots every year.
Another point that I would like to raise is pilot age. I am 58 and have been flying for 30 years. Although I fly a lot and have taking upgrade training in the last few years, I am not as good a pilot as I was twenty years ago. There, I said it, I am not as good as I used to be. My mind does not work as fast, my reflexes are not as quick, I do not see as well, and I am more easily distracted. All of those negatives are somewhat balanced with less risk taking, more experience and hopefully more wisdom. However, bottom line is that I need to be even more careful as time goes on. I would suspect that the average age of this group is probably not too far off of 50. For the most part one has to be middle aged to afford this hobby.
Base to final stall training is something that you should practice. Hire someone good, go high and see what it actually feels like.
As a side note: With my "modern" panel I miss the great big old ball that I used to have in all of my airplanes. Although you can stall a plane with the ball in the middle you are not as likely to drop a wing. It was something that I always looked at. This little artificial ball just does not get my old fart attention.
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Then install one of these....... http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...?clickkey=4877 ....... at the top of your panel.
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VAF #897 Warren Moretti
2019 =VAF= Dues PAID
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03-13-2013, 12:04 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ashland, OR
Posts: 2,573
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Object Lesson?
So, I'm wondering now if this thread serves as an object lesson for all of us on the VAF, who sit on both sides of the discussion of whether or not to discuss accidents.
On one side, a number of good observations have been put forward on possible factors, and things that can serve as lessons-learned:
1) overshoot/steeper turn to final
2) cross wind
3) wind gradient
4) density altitude
5) go-around
6) training history/"license to learn" to expand personal skill set
7) judgement to recognize evolving situation with lurking hazards, and/or judgement not to exceed personal skill set
8) cockpit distractions, relaxed/familiarity/complacency.
And, are these all based on speculation based on incomplete facts and may be wrong/probably are wrong for the specific accident? YES.
And even so, is there still value in collecting relevant observations of what circumstances MIGHT have played a role and how to avoid/overcome them if they happen to you or me? YES.
On the other hand, as is common in controversial threads, it has somewhat boiled down to a back-and-forth between just a very few people, who, in reality probably agree on much more than they disagree on, and over a beer could probably agree to disagree, or find some nuances in each other's points that have value. But in the virtual world of the forum, unlike over a beer, we don't seem to reconcile very well.
So, this thread is a great experiment in more ways than one and I applaud the OP for putting it up. Sadly though, I think one aspect of the experiment is proving the case of those who would rather confine the accident discussions to other forums -- that we don't seem to be able to stay focused on the objective situation, we generalize to basic philosophies, and end up not reaching any closure.
I hope we continue the experiment. I hope we learn as we go to keep it in a forum that everyone will be able to learn from, and not drive people away that don't want to read 2 or 3 thread pages of back-and-forth with no closure.
I'll try to write up an interesting experience next week that should stimulate a juicy discussion.
__________________
Steve Smith
Aeronautical Engineer
RV-8 N825RV
IO-360 A1A
WW 200RV
"The Magic Carpet"
Hobbs 625
LS6-15/18W sailplane SOLD
bought my old LS6-A back!! 
VAF donation Jan 2020
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03-13-2013, 03:23 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sonoma County
Posts: 3,821
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hill
Lots of discussion is a good sign that people are at least reading and thinking about the safety topic. Plus one for the home team.
Second, with regard to the safety topic at hand?What are you going to do if you should find that you have messed up and stalled your airplane in the pattern? There is a face full of ground out your windshield and uncommanded bank. If your first reaction is not push the throttle up and recover the aircraft, you are wrong. I say this because I?ve seen people leave the throttle at idle as they succumb to their natural instincts to avoid accelerating while the airplane is pointed at the ground. You absolutely have to fight that instinct and push the throttle up to recover the aircraft, regardless of the fact that you are extremely nose low at low altitude. Speed is life!
I understand why people want to talk about pushing it up and honing skills, but that is a different safety discussion for the future. I have some really good topics for at least a couple of months, so just bear with me and take it one safety discussion at a time.
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First reaction is to PUSH THE STICK forward...... then add power. There is no debate over this.
__________________
VAF #897 Warren Moretti
2019 =VAF= Dues PAID
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03-13-2013, 06:15 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 53
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The most dangerous pilots I have flown with are those who's ego (or confidence) does not match their ability. Low experience/low capability pilots that have a set of limitations that match their ability can be quite safe. I agree that proper training and experience can expand the safe envelope for pilots as they develop their proficiency. Some of the rules of thumb discussed here are useful for defining those safe boundaries. As skills develop, these rules of thumb can change too. However, there are a base set of these rules of thumb that even experienced pilots should adhere to. Those that think there are no limitations or rules of thumb that should ring their alarm bells fit in to the 'ego exceeding ability' category.
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03-13-2013, 07:22 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Posts: 3,932
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gasman
First reaction is to PUSH THE STICK forward...... then add power. There is no debate over this.
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One hand on stick, one hand on throttle. Why wouldn't you do both simultaneously?
__________________
Rob Prior
1996 RV-6 "Tweety" C-FRBP (formerly N196RV)
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03-13-2013, 07:31 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Port St Lucie, FL
Posts: 261
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You can practice this
I used to teach the stall/spin scenario in my Extra. We would set up a pattern, with 3000' or so as designated hard deck/ground level, and start a downwind pattern at 4000'. Engine at idle, slower than usual approach airspeed, maybe 75 to 80 mph. On the base to final turn we would tighten the turn to the point of stall, and on some approaches, skid the plane to the point of a stall. Then see if we could recover before going through the hard deck. Often the plane would do the sweetest, gentlest snap roll to spin before busting through.
Though I suspect the sensations are quite similar, I will add a disclaimer: I honestly can't speak to an RV, as I haven't done this yet in an RV, but in an Extra it's quite obvious that you are out of the "normal" envelope of flying, long before the aircraft stalls. You can hear how much quieter the air noise is, you can feel how mushy the controls are, you can feel the added "g" forces, and you can definitely feel the uncoordination of the skid. You actually have to work at it some to get it to stall, much less spin.
I urge everyone to get physical training like this in the stall / spin scenario. Then take your aircraft up to a safe altitude and practice, see how your aircraft responds. Once you are familiar with the way your aircraft FEELS before it stalls/spins, you won't need AOA's, stall warning horns, or even airspeed indicators, those are for BIG airplanes that HAVE to flown by the numbers. Part of my PPL training, long before I had flown any aerobatics, was to do approaches and landings with the AI covered. If you never did that during your training, it's time to do it now, with a competent instructor, of course!
You will develop an invaluable feel for it. I can't emphasize this enough! You will be able to sense when the aircraft is in, or nearing, a possibly dangerous flight regime. Its quite uncomfortable, and easy to recognize once you have some experience. This will allow you to keep your head out of the cockpit in a busy area, as well as adjusting your approach safely.
__________________
Damon Wack
RV-7 in progress
Last edited by N355DW : 03-13-2013 at 07:34 AM.
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