VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics


Go Back   VAF Forums > RV Firewall Forward Section > Fuel Injection Systems
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-04-2013, 12:05 PM
Don's Avatar
Don Don is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 696
Default Airflow Performance Class

For those of you who are flying behind a fuel injected Lycoming, or are thinking about it, I'd like to suggest taking Don Rivera's class on fuel injection. Don and Colleen Rivera are Airflow Performance. I was one of four people who took the class this weekend and I went from knowing nothing about fuel injection to feeling pretty good about knowing how the system works, how to trouble shoot problems, and how to know when the injectors are balanced and when they're not.

The short version of the class is we met for dinner Friday evening. Don and Colleen gave a tour of the shop, which I missed due to Charlottes rush hour traffic - who would have thought it started by 3:30 pm? After that we had dinner and some great conversation. The class started at 8:30 Saturday with a detailed description of how fuel injection works. It was a mix of PowerPoint slides with drawing and hands of examples of the components Don uses and a Bendix system. He runs a Bendix repair station and worked for Bendix years ago. The "lecture" and discussion runs until lunch time and is simply full of theory, practice, a bit of history, and all sorts of useful information.

After a great lunch (no one will go hungry here) we went into the lab and put the theory into practice by changing components and watching what happened to fuel flow under various conditions. If there's one thing I would like to emphasize is Don can explain the system and how it works in theory and practice very well. I went from ground zero (no knowledge) and never had trouble keeping up - but I did pay attention and I have a modest understanding of fluid dynamics from another industry. The lab really made a lot of sense and put the theory to practical use both in understanding things and likely improved understanding of what's going on in the cockpit.

After the lab there was a long period for discussion - on all sorts of things (including VAF) followed by dinner around 7 pm. I don't know exactly as my brain was pretty well fried at this point.

Sunday morning we started at 8:30 and ran until about 11:30 going over some of the practical aspects of flying behind FI. My guess is most people would have enjoyed the examples about how to balance the injectors. It sure explained a lot to me. But, I think one of the most interesting aspects of Sunday's discussion dealt with how to size the injectors for different styles of flying. If you're flying like Vlad and looking for range and economy you'll need a different size injector than someone like Bob Axom who wants all out speed. But now I know why and it has little to do with top speed! And the reason all comes down to compromises that you need to make to get the system to work within the operating ranges you fly. Every change affects the whole system. The other part of Sundays discussion that really got my attention was vapor pressure and building a system that would be less prone to giving you problems. Hopefully, I'll make a few less mistakes and a few more good decisions as I get 702DA (my FI 9A) flying.

My pirep is basically this - Don and Colleen offer a great class, excellent hospitality (you will not leave hungry!) and have a lot to offer anyone interested in learning about fuel injection. The class is $325 and I want to say I got my money's worth out of it. Don is a class act - my fuel injection system is a Silver Hawk (the competitor) and he never said an ill word about it and took time to talk about the differences between his system and the Silver Hawk (Bendix) in a way that was entirely professional and very helpful to me.
__________________
Don Alexander
Virginia
RV-9A 257SW Purchase Flying - O-320, Dynon D100
RV-9A 702DA (reserved) Finish Kit IOX-340
www.propjock.com
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-04-2013, 01:34 PM
Rupester Rupester is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mahomet, Illinois
Posts: 2,195
Default Thanks for the PIREP ...

I definitely want to attend one of Don's upcoming classes/seminars ... couldn't make this most recent one. The more I know about fuel injection systems the better off I am.
__________________
Terry Ruprecht
RV-9A Tip-up; IO-320 D2A
S. James cowl/plenum
(Dues paid thru Nov '18)
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-04-2013, 01:58 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 6,767
Default

I wonder if Don has ever considered videotaping a class, and selling a CD to those of us on the west coast?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-04-2013, 02:01 PM
rleffler's Avatar
rleffler rleffler is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Delaware, OH (KDLZ)
Posts: 4,194
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupester View Post
I definitely want to attend one of Don's upcoming classes/seminars ... couldn't make this most recent one. The more I know about fuel injection systems the better off I am.
Me too.....

Unfortunately, the next class date my niece chose to get married on. I don't think I'll be attending until next spring. Bummer.......

bob
__________________
Bob Leffler
N410BL - RV10 Flying
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-04-2013, 04:26 PM
Geico266's Avatar
Geico266 Geico266 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Huskerland, USA
Posts: 5,862
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner View Post
I wonder if Don has ever considered videotaping a class, and selling a CD to those of us on the west coast?
+1

And as a refresher course so I don't have to bug Pierre now and then.
__________________
RV-7 : In the hangar
RV-10 : In the hangar
RV-12 : Built and sold
RV-44 : 4 place helicopter on order.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-06-2013, 08:30 AM
Don's Avatar
Don Don is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 696
Default

I don't know if Don ever thought of making a DVD of the class but having been through it and having done a lot of teaching in my day job, I'd have to say that you could only get the theory portion of the class recorded. That's not necessarily a bad thing or inadequate but it is only about a third of what the class covers now.

The lab exercises are hands on and they reinforce and support what you've learned in the theory section. As a community college instructor we use labs frequently, and they really add something to the learning experience that's hard to defend but in my experience is an essential part of some classes. If you're going to "do" something rather than read and write about it, the lab is often a key part of the learning process. This is especially true when people don't have practical experience with something or a concept isn't intuitively obvious. I can't prove it, but my opinion is Don's FI class really benefits from the lab.

Additionally, the troubleshooting and injector balancing part of the class was build on both the theory and the lab portions of the class. Some of the issues with pressure drops due to orifice sizes and fittings, made more sense after working the lab exercises.

Having said this, there may well be a place for an explanation of the theory of FI. There certainly isn't just one way to teach (or learn) a subject and there's tons of documentation on this. My point is it wouldn't be the same sort of class or experience that Don and Colleen offer and different isn't necessarily good or bad.

It might be worth a call to Don to talk to him to see if he's interested. Another possibility would be doing an online class. The lab would be different but I think it could work.
__________________
Don Alexander
Virginia
RV-9A 257SW Purchase Flying - O-320, Dynon D100
RV-9A 702DA (reserved) Finish Kit IOX-340
www.propjock.com
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-06-2013, 06:10 PM
Greg Arehart's Avatar
Greg Arehart Greg Arehart is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Delta, CO/Atlin, BC
Posts: 2,389
Default

Don has hinted that he might be willing to bring the class to the west coast, perhaps near the time of the Reno Air Races. Obviously, we would not have the benefit of the full capability of his shop, but it would be easier for some of us to attend if closer. Even the lecture portion of the course would be welcomed by many I have spoken with. Perhaps he will chime in?

Greg
__________________
Greg Arehart
RV-9B (Big tires) Tipup @AJZ or CYSQ
N 7965A
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-07-2013, 07:16 PM
Don at Airflow Don at Airflow is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 316
Default

Whew. Just recovering from FI 101 last weekend. But as draining as it is to prepare (I think Colleen has the brunt of it getting all the meal prep done) we always have a good time and always enjoy the diversity of the people who attend. For me meeting all of the class attendants and sharing their backgrounds and passions is the fun part. There?s always interesting subjects being discussed around the meal table and hanger, plus Colleen is always happy to include the wife?s or girl friends if they tag along also. It gives a little balance to all the testosterone in the shop. And of course, spreading the word about FI is the main course. There?s just a lot of info to pack into two days.

It is true. Colleen and I are planning to attend the Reno Air Races this year (planning is the key word here). When we attend we usually travel on Wed and spend Thurs. through Sun. for the races. I?m typically trying to give support to all of our customers who are racing. Some get more attention than others but it?s all fun. Doing some sort of presentation may be possible in the evening, but I would let Greg decide if he could find a place and get a group of interested participants together. I could do a talk on troubleshooting, tuning or the basis of nozzle tuning or just have an open discussion. I would probably have a net book (if Colleen let?s me bring it) so if there were a way to project the computer that would make it a bit easier to understand. I know the last few days of Reno sometimes get crazy for the participants, and me but maybe we can figure something out. I will let Greg be the go to on this out there. Greg, you can contact me at don@airflowperformance.com. As far as an on-line class, that sounds interesting too. My computer skills are probably not up to par on that (hey, ever wonder why we build MECHANICAL fuel injection) but I will get back with you, Don, on that subject. Don?t know what?s involved but probably need to check it out. Humm, maybe a 1-900 question line would be the way to go. Master Card and Visa accepted.


Don
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-07-2013, 07:21 PM
jetdriven jetdriven is offline
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Houston tx
Posts: 124
Default

I thought the goal was to balance the injectors so they all peak at the same time, whether racing or flying for max efficiency. FWIW we race our 201 and fly lots of XC.
__________________
Byron
1977 Mooney 201
Houston, TX
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-08-2013, 06:16 AM
Don at Airflow Don at Airflow is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 316
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jetdriven View Post
I thought the goal was to balance the injectors so they all peak at the same time, whether racing or flying for max efficiency. FWIW we race our 201 and fly lots of XC.
That statement is true. How you get there is the trick.

Don
Reply With Quote
Reply



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:33 AM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.