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POSTING RULES

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03-05-2013, 10:49 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 53
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'Freedom' is the excuse of the selfish to avoid responsibility.
Every time you get in an aircraft, as a GA or professional pilot, you have a duty of care to your passengers and innocent bystanders. Stating that the foolish acts of others should only affect how you yourself act, or that by getting in to an aircraft the passenger accepts all responsibility for the acts of the pilot is patently absurd.
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03-05-2013, 10:59 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Meridian ID, Aspen CO, Okemos MI
Posts: 2,645
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Is more training the answer?
I am one that likes to read the discussions or speculation about accidents. I don't agree with the policy Doug has limiting accident discussion. But, it is his site so he makes the rules.
Since this thread is not discussing any specific accident but how to improve GA flying safety, I think it fits the rules.
The thought of many including the FAA, AOPA, EAA, is that pilots need more training. Is more training the answer? If it is, than why do very experienced pilots with great flying skills crash?
I believe I learn things to help me be a safer pilot from discussing or even speculating on what caused an accident. For a low time pilot like me, it freaks the crapp out of me when I hear about an accident where a CFI with instrument rating and thousands of hours as PIC, crashes. There have been more than a few experimental and certified accidents last year where that was the case. Either it was a stall or just plowing into the side of a hill. I don't see more training as the answer to those accidents. If you need more training than the thousands of hours those pilots had, I might as well give up. I know I will never have the experience or skills they had.
My only hope is to be smarter than they were. I want to know exactly what their decision tree was that got them in the position they couldn't get out of. If I can't know exactly what happened, the speculation of some pretty sharp people here might trigger a thought in my head that could save my a$$. Once a "report" comes out or the pilot posts information, we can see who was on the right track in their speculation and learn from the guesses of those who were off base. Either way, we learned something.
I absolutely understand that a low time pilot like me needs all the training and instruction I can get. Before I started building, I had a discussion with my wife and a few pilot friends about the risks. Together we came up with "rules" for me.
1. I will not fly at night
2. I will not fly in bad or marginal weather
3. I will not be an idiot and buzz someone or something
4. I will not run out of gas
5. I will not postpone maintenance of ANY safety issue
6. I will not fly on a trip if there is a chance I will "need" to be there or home by a fixed date
7. I will not try to do a 180 turn back to the airport unless I am POSITIVE I can make it back.
8. I will not stall trying to save the plane
1. I will do a complete pre-flight EVERY time the wheels will be leaving the ground
2. I will use a checklist EVERY time I take off or land
3. I will check the fuel level EVERY time before the wheels leave the ground
4. I will not fly when tired or stressed
5. I will have a traffic avoidance system installed or the plane does not leave the ground
6. I will crash land the plane under control straight ahead or land off airport if I lose power under ????'. (need to flight test to know this number)
Like others have said, if discussions can save someone - or me from making the same mistake, we can save lives.
__________________
rockwoodrv9a
Williamston MI
O-320 D2A
Awaiting DAR Inspection
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03-06-2013, 04:42 AM
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Brisbane Qld. Aust.
Posts: 2,271
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With freedom comes responsibility.
I am with Bob Turner and ChrisH on this.
Many accidents that are in the dumb class, and we have had a spate of them here in the ultralight or LSA category of late, are ALL low fruit accidents as Van would call them. One was two dead young folk in an LSA, been drinking beers and decided to beat up a mates house. Two Dead.
Of course it would never be you...........
I get hammered on this forum for speaking the truth, I have many posts removed for it, this one may end up deleted as well. But cowboy antics, and just simple stupidity is what kills most folk in aviation.
Nothing has changed in over 100 years, no new ways to kill yourself just a few creative variations. Don't be one of them.
Only have to look at a recent -10 prang. Fortunately a good result from a bad set of actions.
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______________________________
David Brown
DYNON Authorised Dealer and Installer
The two best investments you can make, by any financial test, an EMS and APS!
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03-06-2013, 05:00 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockwoodrv9
"rules" for me.
1. I will not fly at night
2. I will not fly in bad or marginal weather
3. I will not be an idiot and buzz someone or something
4. I will not run out of gas
5. I will not postpone maintenance of ANY safety issue
6. I will not fly on a trip if there is a chance I will "need" to be there or home by a fixed date
7. I will not try to do a 180 turn back to the airport unless I am POSITIVE I can make it back.
8. I will not stall trying to save the plane
1. I will do a complete pre-flight EVERY time the wheels will be leaving the ground
2. I will use a checklist EVERY time I take off or land
3. I will check the fuel level EVERY time before the wheels leave the ground
4. I will not fly when tired or stressed
5. I will have a traffic avoidance system installed or the plane does not leave the ground
6. I will crash land the plane under control straight ahead or land off airport if I lose power under ????'. (need to flight test to know this number)
Like others have said, if discussions can save someone - or me from making the same mistake, we can save lives.
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I like your checklist. I was just reading about this senseless crash in NM. Innocent folks died and it's clear the cause with extremely poor judgement. http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?se...ate&id=9015423
This was an educated man - an engineer. How could he not know the risks? Or choose to ignore them?
How do we teach common sense?
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03-06-2013, 05:41 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Brooksville, MS
Posts: 745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hill
I genuinely believe that if you live another 30 years, you will see the end of GA in the US. Typing on the phone so I will leave it at that for now
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I hope you are incorrect. The part that bothers me is I think you might be right. 
__________________
Weasel
RV-4 715hr Sold 
RV-10 "School Bus" -   +1600hr counting
Fisher Classic Cassler Power VW sold
RV-10 N7631T 820hr Sold
RV-8 700+hrs
Carbon Cub 200 hr Sold
One-Off Super Cub 100 hr
SERFI AWARDS
http://weaselrv10.blogspot.com/
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03-06-2013, 08:05 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Novato, CA KDVO
Posts: 377
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Training
It took me less time to get my Private....written study time, flight hours, dual, etc. than it took for my wife to get certified in Pilates. Just saying.
We also need to keep in mind. Our PPL is a license to learn. Continue to learn. I read as much as I can to contiue to educate myself. There are alot of pilots that don't do that. I know a few.
The best learning to me, is reading about a mistake that another pilot made, especially when the consequences of their choices did not have a good ending. It seems to stick with me.
__________________
Kyle Gee
Purchased and sold flying RV-6
RV-7 Kit (sold to purchase C150 to train my kids)
Purchased flying RV-7
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03-06-2013, 09:06 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Battleground
Posts: 4,348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV10inOz
With freedom comes responsibility.
I am with Bob Turner and ChrisH on this.
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I agree to a point, but does freedom come with responsibility? It should, but it has been proven not to work over the course of time. That is why we have rules, defined and enforced by law, law that we choose to enact through our democracy. Don't confuse democracy with freedom, big mistake.
Rules are supposed to "govern" behaviour. However, I do not think there is a single person in this discussion that has never broken a rule, thought a rule was stupid, or bent one to meet their own need.
Freedom without responsibility will lead to more laws, rules, and restrictions. We need to always be concious of how our actions may impact others, short and long term.
So, yes, freedom does come with responsibility, but can we handle that? The rash of stupid accidents seems to say no. Read my tag line. Smart people do stupid things all the time.....
If we keep it up, we will be regulated and ruled right out of this "hobby" and for some of us a lifestyle.....
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Smart People do Stupid things all the time. I know, I've seen me do'em.
RV6 - Builder/Flying
Bucker Jungmann
Fiat G.46 -(restoration in progress, if I have enough life left in me)
RV1 - Proud Pilot.
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03-06-2013, 09:14 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, WA USA
Posts: 908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrish
'Freedom' is the excuse of the selfish to avoid responsibility.
Every time you get in an aircraft, as a GA or professional pilot, you have a duty of care to your passengers and innocent bystanders. Stating that the foolish acts of others should only affect how you yourself act, or that by getting in to an aircraft the passenger accepts all responsibility for the acts of the pilot is patently absurd.
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Just the opposite actually, I take responsibility for myself and you do the same, I take responsibility for myself when I am deciding whether to ride with you or not, I don?t know you and don?t know what you might do so I will pass. Now you can just give the pilot all the responsibility and jump in and go with anyone that says come on and he can have all the responsibility and you can be dead. I actually blame the pedestrians in down town Portland that get killed every month, even the ones in the cross walk, recently some got run over by a bus making a right turn at night, the bus driver lost her job etc. it was all her fault, well she did not see them but how did they not see her, she was driving a bus with all the noise and all the lights and it was a bus, no one said anything about their responsibility to themselves to look out for busses. I will take responsibility for myself when I walk in Portland; I will take responsibility for myself when deciding what airplane or car to ride in and by doing this I will have a better chance to live a long life, id rather be responsible for myself and alive then an innocent and dead.
In any case I don?t advocate flying reckless but I also don?t think I and the rest of us should be held to account for the ones who do, and I also think passengers have a great deal more responsibility for their choice when they get in a little RV with me or you then when they get in a South West 737.
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03-06-2013, 10:00 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Douglas Flat, CA
Posts: 589
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ McCutcheon
...In any case I don?t advocate flying reckless but I also don?t think I and the rest of us should be held to account for the ones who do...
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I agree that that is the way it should be. Unfortunately, that isn't the way it works for a lot of the media and the general public. When they see dumb accidents, it colors their perception of the entire aviation community. And you really can't blame them. Generalities like that may be invalid and inappropriate when applied to the specific, but they are to some degree hardwired into the human condition. You really can't blame people for adopting attitudes and behaviors that they think will help preserve their personal safety and the safety of their families, friends, and resources.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ McCutcheon
...and I also think passengers have a great deal more responsibility for their choice when they get in a little RV with me or you then when they get in a South West 737.
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That is a very interesting point from an ethical perspective!
I certainly agree that it is reasonable to say that passengers bear a greater responsibility for their personal safety when riding in experimental aircraft than in commercial airliners. However, I also think that the operators of experimental aircraft bear a greater responsibility towards their passengers to make sure that they have the capacity to make an informed choice about such activity.
Of course, not every passenger will have the ability to make such a fully-informed choice. The most common example is taking children for rides. Depending on their age, they might have no idea at all that there is even criteria for a decision. They just want a ride in the sleek shiny airplane now! Of course, the way our society handles that is by designating parents and guardians to make those informed decisions on behalf of the child and in the child's best interests.
I would further propose that operators of all aircraft have a responsibility to deliberately and consciously consider issues of risk exposure, and to moderate that exposure according to the degree to which their passengers have made an informed decision. Taking a kid up on a Young Eagles ride, you can be pretty certain that they don't have a full understanding of density altitude and haven't read Rogers on the "impossible turn."
Thanks, Bob K.
__________________
Bob Kuykendall
HP-24 kit sailplane
EAA Technical Counselor
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03-06-2013, 10:56 AM
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Tuttle, Oklahoma
Posts: 2,563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrish
'Freedom' is the excuse of the selfish to avoid responsibility.
Every time you get in an aircraft, as a GA or professional pilot, you have a duty of care to your passengers and innocent bystanders. Stating that the foolish acts of others should only affect how you yourself act, or that by getting in to an aircraft the passenger accepts all responsibility for the acts of the pilot is patently absurd.
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Hmmm! How does this sound:
Quote:
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Every time you get in an automobile, as a driver, you have a duty of care to your passengers and innocent bystanders. Stating that the foolish acts of others should only affect how you yourself act, or that by getting in to an automobile the passenger accepts all responsibility for the acts of the pilot is patently absurd.
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If one is honest with oneself, how often do any of us think like this when driving others around in our automobiles? Is the risk, responsibility, analysis any different in these two scenarios? I personally don't think so, but I can attest to the fact that I don't have conscious thoughts along these lines when driving someone around in an automobile. I do have them when I take them up in my airplane.
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