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  #11  
Old 01-22-2013, 12:56 AM
Aryana Aryana is offline
 
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Solution....stop using VFR flight following! Just kidding, but at least you wouldn't have to hear then tell you that you're in airspace that you really aren't
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  #12  
Old 01-22-2013, 06:39 AM
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Toobuilder Toobuilder is offline
 
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Kidding aside, this has raised my awareness that for those few times I'm NOT using FF, I may get the dreaded call when I land. I'm thinking its easier for a bored controller to violate an anonymous radar target than a pilot you're actively talking to.
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  #13  
Old 01-22-2013, 06:51 AM
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I can't speak for Mohave, but in the MSP class B, there is difference between where the controller's 30 mile ring set is centered vs the gps' (or at least was several years ago, probably still is). The radar (controller's) rings are centered on the radar unit, not surprisingly, which is offset from the MSP airport by perhaps a mile. The airspace as depicted on charts and gps databases is centered on MSP airport. Perhaps this is the case with many airspaces?
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  #14  
Old 01-22-2013, 06:56 AM
David-aviator David-aviator is offline
 
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Keep using FF, it contributes to safe flight if controllers have time to provide the service.

Best way to handle the situation you mention is to respond that your system shows you clear of the airspace but that you will adjust your route to satisfy his system.

That's a lot easier than doing a rug dance at a hearing on the matter.
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  #15  
Old 01-22-2013, 07:54 AM
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I fly from under the Orlando Class Bravo rings and step up my altitude with the allowed altitude rings. The chart is very specific about where these rings are with alignment to roads in the area. So instead of using the GPS data base I use the roads and lakes but have been called by the tower to decend back out of the Bravo. Seems they are a little slow or out of calibration. By the time I call them back they say I am clear. I did a tower visit once and asked about it and only got a shrugged shoulder.
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  #16  
Old 01-22-2013, 08:01 AM
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Toobuilder Toobuilder is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexPeterson View Post
I can't speak for Mohave, but in the MSP class B, there is difference between where the controller's 30 mile ring set is centered vs the gps'...
Good point about airspace rings, but in the case of a Restricted area, the boundaries are often highly irregular, and therefore should be defined by thier own coordinates rather than the somewhat ambiguous "centered on" landmark. I wonder if there is information somewhere (available to pilots) that describes the various corners of the airspace in navigation units. One would assume so, considering this is how your GPS "knows" if you are on one side of the line or another.
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  #17  
Old 01-22-2013, 11:31 AM
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az_gila az_gila is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toobuilder View Post
Good point about airspace rings, but in the case of a Restricted area, the boundaries are often highly irregular, and therefore should be defined by thier own coordinates rather than the somewhat ambiguous "centered on" landmark. I wonder if there is information somewhere (available to pilots) that describes the various corners of the airspace in navigation units. One would assume so, considering this is how your GPS "knows" if you are on one side of the line or another.
The information is available in this document -

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/SUA.pdf

..and is defined by lat/long points as you mention.

Here is the R-2501-S area mentioned previously -

R-2501S Bullion Mountains South, CA
Boundaries. Beginning at lat. 34°28'13"N., long. 116°12'23"W.; to lat. 34°27'30"N., long.
116°04'16"W.; to lat. 34°20'09"N., long. 115°59'06"W.; to lat. 34°14'00"N., long.115°57'03"W.;
to lat. 34°14'00"N., long. 116°17'03"W.; to lat. 34°19'30"N., long. 116°20'29"W.; to lat.
34°19'30"N., long. 116°15'50"W.; to lat. 34°24'54"N., long. 116°17'55"W.; to the point of
beginning.
Designated altitudes. Unlimited.
Time of designation. Continuous.
Controlling agency. FAA, Los Angeles ARTCC.
Using agency. Commanding General, Marine Corps Base, Twentynine Palms, CA.


The above is listed to a pretty high accuracy...

A second of latitude is approximately 0.02 miles, or just over 100 feet.

Should be obvious...
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Last edited by az_gila : 01-22-2013 at 11:37 AM.
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  #18  
Old 01-22-2013, 11:50 AM
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tkatc tkatc is offline
 
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Special use airspace is drawn onto the controller's overlay using GPS coordinates so it has nothing to do with radar vs airport displacement. Some have already mentioned the IFR separation requirements but as I read it you were VFR so that doesn't apply.

I suspect you were working with a CENTER controller and not a terminal approach control. If that is the case you must keep in mind the CENTER controller uses not just 1 radar site but instead a mosaic of several sites. This is the reason that standard radar separation between IFR aircraft is 5 miles for CENTER guys vs the 3 miles for terminal guys. The center radar is just not as accurate because it is a mosaic.

Not sure what kind of argument you were having but going an extra mile at RV speeds is a much smaller price to pay than even the cost of making a phone call if they wish to speak with you. Of course you can test that theory so long as you report back to us!
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  #19  
Old 01-22-2013, 12:09 PM
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Toobuilder Toobuilder is offline
 
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Yes, this is usually Center, but "Approach" has spoken up as well.

And I agree, moving a little to one side is not much of an issue, but my point of discussion is the fact that one's exact position in space is very easy to measure these days, and therefore should be a black and white issue.
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WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.

Michael Robinson
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1984 L39C
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  #20  
Old 01-22-2013, 12:10 PM
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Toobuilder Toobuilder is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az_gila View Post
The information is available in this document...
Thanks Gil. Will be studying that for the future!
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WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.

Michael Robinson
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RV-8 - SDS CPI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C
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