Stall warning or traffic alerts: Which offers the best safety benefit?

[Ron Lee]

Originally Posted by David-aviator

When ADS-B is up and running and everyone is plugged in, it probably will be very good.

Not everyone will be "plugged in" to ADS-B.

[RVFlyer]

Originally Posted by LettersFromFlyoverCountry

Didn't we fly down to Red Wing? I don't recall warnings all the way.

But I wasn't paying much attention. It was all I could do keep from stalling it in.

That was worth reading every other post in the thread.

[RV8R999]

Originally Posted by David-aviator

I don't know what TIS is but I do know a system called TCAS worked quite well when I was flying for a living. It works so well, the PIC is authorized to deviate from an assigned IFR altitude and follow its commands if it goes off - had it happen a number of times.

I suspect the system is not a part of GA because it is expensive, but it does work. When ADS-B is up and running and everyone is plugged in, it probably will be very good.

It is already very good....much better than TIS, and TIS is good too.

Traffic within 15nm and +-3500ft for all aircraft in the ATC system which includes IFR, VFR and primary radar contacts as well as aircraft-to-aircraft for those equiped. If you live on the East or West coast today you will have really good coverage. The rest of the country will catch up soon. I have both ADS-B in/out and it does improve overall SA for traffic, weather, TFRs, Notams, etc all in one integrated package. An increase in SA will be of benefit to everyone.

[Brantel]

Originally Posted by Ron Lee

Not everyone will be "plugged in" to ADS-B.

You are correct.

People with no xponder won't be plugged in. Sort of...

People with their xponder turned off won't be plugged in. Sort of...

However how many aircraft (that are typically any factor to GA), as a percentage, are built and flown these days with no xponder or with it turned off? I am guessing that percentage is pretty low.
How many typical GA aircraft owners will be willing to exclude their aircraft from "current MODE C required airspace" post 2020?

Like Ken states above, if you see a reply light on your xponder, you are plugged in whether you like it or not.

This ADS-B stuff is similar to the days when GPS was coming on the scene. Most old timers thought it was a fad and that it would never replace traditional land based NAV sources. ADS-B is coming to the masses and we are mandated to either get on board or face restrictions in 2020. Nothing we can do is going to stop it.

[Brantel]

Originally Posted by David-aviator

I don't know what TIS is but I do know a system called TCAS worked quite well when I was flying for a living. It works so well, the PIC is authorized to deviate from an assigned IFR altitude and follow its commands if it goes off - had it happen a number of times.

I suspect the system is not a part of GA because it is expensive, but it does work. When ADS-B is up and running and everyone is plugged in, it probably will be very good.

TIS-A is the older system that is being decommissioned. It worked but had some flaws.

TIS-B is like TIS-A on steroids and works much better. It is not perfect but the perfect solution does not exist.

Add to TIS-B the air to air capabilities of ADS-B and it really makes a nice traffic avoidance augmentation system. Bonus is free weather products, NOTAMS and TFRS....

[Ron Lee]

Originally Posted by Brantel

This ADS-B stuff is similar to the days when GPS was coming on the scene. Most old timers thought it was a fad and that it would never replace traditional land based NAV sources. ADS-B is coming to the masses and we are mandated to either get on board or face restrictions in 2020. Nothing we can do is going to stop it.

ADS-B Out is different. It is there to help the FAA save money and offers little or no benefit to people who only equip with it, thus far more people will not equip with ADS-B Out than you think.

Not everyone has the "get the latest technology" mindset.

A logical outcome (unintended consequence) of the ADS-B Out mandate is that more people will cruise around with their transponder off above 10,000 feet.

[Brantel]

Originally Posted by Ron Lee

ADS-B Out is different. It is there to help the FAA save money and offers little or no benefit to people who only equip with it, thus far more people will not equip with ADS-B Out than you think.

Not everyone has the "get the latest technology" mindset.

I really have no opinion on the real motives for the feds mandating ADS-B out but as far as who will comply with the mandate, lets agree to disagree.

It has nothing to do with the latest technology mindset. It is a federal mandate that you have the option to comply with or not. To chose not to comply limits how one can operate their aircraft. In some areas drastically. I doubt the masses will put that kind of limitation on their aircraft.

Sure there will be a few here and there but as a whole, who wants to have those kinds of restrictions on the use of their bird?

There will end up being some much cheaper options for compliance by 2020 and most of em will also give the return of free weather and traffic.

Originally Posted by Ron Lee

A logical outcome (unintended consequence) of the ADS-B Out mandate is that more people will cruise around with their transponder off above 10,000 feet.

And most likely those folks will get a call from some authority when they land. It happens all the time today. If anyone thinks they are not being watched just because they turn off their xponder, they are very wrong. The radar operators do not need a xponder to track a target. One call to the FBO and the line guy will spill his guts on who just landed. Happened recently at our airport when someone busted thru a class B with his xponder off. They tracked him from West TN to East TN and intercepted him on the ground.

[LettersFromFlyoverCountry]

Today's AvWeb article on AOA systems.

[the_other_dougreeves]

Originally Posted by LettersFromFlyoverCountry

I think any fool with an airman's certificate understands the CONSTANT threat of stalling vs. the OCCASIONAL threat of if a middair.
...
But we already HAVE an instrument to prevent those situations, we just don't use it nearly enough.

Most airplanes - assuming they are in trim - fly just fine if you let go of the stick. The problem tends to be the pilot.

As you note, we have plenty of instrumentation to stay away from the stall. Unless you have a traffic system or a transparent airplane and perfect vision, you do not have instrumentation to avoid traffic.

As Paul notes, some aircraft have little to no warning of the stall. All of the airplanes I fly all have plenty of warning, so I will defer to the experience of others there. But everything I fly has conventional stall characteristics - sloppy controls, low airspeed, buffeting, nose high (for accelerated stalls) - I'd rather have traffic.

(all of this goes out the window if you are talking about full pro-spin inputs in the stall. My first experience with trying to spin the Grob 103 resulted in the aircraft being on its back before I could react)

I actually only have 3 flights as PIC in an aircraft with a stall warning, a 172 during instrument training, so the stall warning device is a foreign to me.

TODR

[RV8R999]

Originally Posted by Ron Lee

ADS-B Out is different. It is there to help the FAA save money and offers little or no benefit to people who only equip with it, thus far more people will not equip with ADS-B Out than you think.

Not everyone has the "get the latest technology" mindset.

A logical outcome (unintended consequence) of the ADS-B Out mandate is that more people will cruise around with their transponder off above 10,000 feet.

Ron - you have not yet flown with ADS-B in/out have you?