Stall warning or traffic alerts: Which offers the best safety benefit?

[Ironflight]

Originally Posted by Toobuilder

True, we can all likely get better than we are now, but even "eagle eyes" Chuck Yeager can't see through the wing, cabin roof or engine cowl of many airplanes. Heck, in my Hiperbipe, I can hardly see anything in any direction.

The point is, many airplanes are essentially blind in many fields of view. There is no training to overcome that basic deficiency.

I agree with you there Mike - See and Avoid has it's drawbacks....but the traffic alert technology is still in its infancy in my opinion, and is not very helpful in a dynamic situation. I rarely have a flight in our TIS-equipped -3 when I don't get alerted about myself - and the false alarms tend to make you suspect all alrms.

I am sure it will develop to be far better than it is, but you still have to have EVERYONE participating, and that rules out lots of non-electric Cubs.

The bottom line is that we have to use multiple tools/skills to stay safe(r), and not rely on any one thing - be it related to traffic, stalls, or whatever.

[LettersFromFlyoverCountry]

Was flying with #2 son a few weeks ago down the Saint Croix River when the traffic alert went off showing a target ahead of us within a mile, somewhat to the right of us and at our altitude. The distance was not changing much.

I couldn't spot him at all -- I'm just not very good at picking up targets against ground clutter -- but failing to spot the traffic, I decided to slow way down. About 30 seconds later, #2 son picked him up, about a half mile directly in front of us.

This is right in the area where a few years ago there was a midair. On this side of MSP, there are three airports within a small circle...all on different frequencies, all sending traffic over this spot.

A few weeks ago I was approaching home field when someone called in that they were "over the refinery," presumably the same one I was over. I'd been issuing my position reports for the last 10 miles; that was his first (normally at this point, I'd tell you IFR guys to quit giving instrument position reports and give real-world ones, but I've given up ). My traffic alert -- Zaon -- didn't have him over the refinery; it had him about a mile away and further north... in my path. I started a 360 and, sure enough, there he was -- not where he said he was -- as I rolled away from him. As I did, the Zaon issued another alert around my "6." I flattened the turn and as I rolled out, there he was, sneaking into the pattern with no radio calls.... I took the #3 slot.

It's true, you get a few false alarms which get your attention and, sure, you can use those to ignore everything else if that's what you think is a wise thing to do.

and it's true, too, that not only planes have xponders for passive interrogation. That's significant in this area where there's a fair amount of glider activity.

Ideally, I'd have both a traffic and a stall warning but at this point, as I indicated earlier, it wasn't practical.

There's some really poor pilots up there.

[Toobuilder]

Agree with you there Paul, the definitive TIS does not exist yet.

...but we ARE much further along with stall avoidance schemes (stall "proof" airplanes, indicators, training, etc) all to no apparent avail. I'm not sure there is much hope of finding more technology to assist in what is essentially a stick and rudder type skillset. OTOH, technology will eventually bring us the ability to "see" other aircraft beyond our own limited field of view. I don't know how or at what cost, but knowing about all targets around you is something that will benefit any pilot.

And BTW, the closest I've ever come to a midair was while I was under the "assistance" of flight following. I was in a Cessna Cardinal on a cross country and missed two air combat T-34's heading out for a "mission". It was head on and only about 50 feet separation. After that, I learned my place as a VFR target in "the system" is pretty low on the priority scale.

[ChiefPilot]

TIS will get better, but its an awfully expensive option. I've had only one inflight experience with the zaon approach, and it seemed laughable. Most of the flight had the zaon box warning the pilot about itself, apparently.

There is no single answer for traffic - relegating traffic avoidance to flight following, TIS, etc. is no excuse for not looking outside to see traffic which might be coming right at you. This is where I think some training would be useful. I'm really interested in the military's approach from the link earlier.

[larrynew]

Originally Posted by ChiefPilot

This is where I think some training would be useful. I'm really interested in the military's approach from the link earlier.

At the risk of a little thread drift, effective scanning is one area I believe has a big safety benefit with little cost. The article I linked earlier is a good start. Just understanding that your eyes CANNOT make a smooth scan without "jumping", during which your "visual perception is minimal" is a big help. You have to practice stopping your scan in "sectors". You also have to work at overcoming the natural tendency of your eyes to focus at only 10 ft.

The techniques we were taught can be practiced on the ground. I used to challenge my son to see who could spot the most aircraft while we were driving. I always beat him 10 to 1 until I started teaching him what I was taught.

[LettersFromFlyoverCountry]

Originally Posted by ChiefPilot

Most of the flight had the zaon box warning the pilot about itself, apparently.

Which it definitely will. If you don't read the instruction manual.

[Brantel]

Originally Posted by LettersFromFlyoverCountry

Which it definitely will. If you don't read the instruction manual.

Thanks Bob, I was going to make the same comment.

[ChiefPilot]

Originally Posted by LettersFromFlyoverCountry

Which it definitely will. If you don't read the instruction manual.

Heh. It was your airplane I was riding in - have you read the instructions yet?

[LettersFromFlyoverCountry]

The only "faulty" warnings I've gotten when flying was over the Pine Bend refinery and also when turning crosswind when departing on 34.

Didn't we fly down to Red Wing? I don't recall warnings all the way.

But I wasn't paying much attention. It was all I could do keep from stalling it in.

[David-aviator]

Originally Posted by ChiefPilot

TIS will get better, but its an awfully expensive option. I've had only one inflight experience with the zaon approach, and it seemed laughable. Most of the flight had the zaon box warning the pilot about itself, apparently.

There is no single answer for traffic - relegating traffic avoidance to flight following, TIS, etc. is no excuse for not looking outside to see traffic which might be coming right at you. This is where I think some training would be useful. I'm really interested in the military's approach from the link earlier.

I don't know what TIS is but I do know a system called TCAS worked quite well when I was flying for a living. It works so well, the PIC is authorized to deviate from an assigned IFR altitude and follow its commands if it goes off - had it happen a number of times.

I suspect the system is not a part of GA because it is expensive, but it does work. When ADS-B is up and running and everyone is plugged in, it probably will be very good.