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  #31  
Old 12-05-2012, 10:18 AM
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Russ McCutcheon Russ McCutcheon is offline
 
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One problem I see is that if you get away with something you are said to have assed the risks and made good decisions based on your capability and that of your craft and the guys that died did not, the problem is, the guys that died thought they had assed the risks and had it figured out too but in the end it did not work out how they thought it would. Do we want to remain free to make these decisions or should we lose our freedoms because a minority of pilots made the wrong decisions? If the guys died doing something legal we should not change the rules to keep you from doing the same thing, if the guy died breaking the rules we should not be held to account for his decision. We can’t save everyone and we should not be trying to.

I understand this is not how it works in this day and age and that we are held accountable for what others do, I already basically said that. My point is that we as a society should recognize we can’t save everyone from everything and we should not be judged based on the actions of those who died, if that would give us all more freedom to kill ourselves one way or another I am fine with that.
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  #32  
Old 12-05-2012, 10:46 AM
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ronschreck ronschreck is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ McCutcheon View Post
One problem I see is that if you get away with something you are said to have assed the risks and made good decisions based on your capability and that of your craft and the guys that died did not, the problem is, the guys that died thought they had assed the risks and had it figured out too but in the end it did not work out how they thought it would. Do we want to remain free to make these decisions or should we lose our freedoms because a minority of pilots made the wrong decisions? If the guys died doing something legal we should not change the rules to keep you from doing the same thing, if the guy died breaking the rules we should not be held to account for his decision. We can?t save everyone and we should not be trying to.

I understand this is not how it works in this day and age and that we are held accountable for what others do, I already basically said that. My point is that we as a society should recognize we can?t save everyone from everything and we should not be judged based on the actions of those who died, if that would give us all more freedom to kill ourselves one way or another I am fine with that.
I like your thinking Russ. Just imagine what a hero I would be if I had an engine failure at night, in the weather, in mountainous terrain and greased it in on a rain swept stretch of road! On the other hand, if a Mack truck happened to meet me going the other direction I would be branded as a foolhardy idiot. Timing is everything!
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  #33  
Old 12-05-2012, 10:56 AM
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"You can't regulate perfection into society.....it will never happen"
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  #34  
Old 12-05-2012, 11:33 AM
60av8tor 60av8tor is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ronschreck View Post
I like your thinking Russ. Just imagine what a hero I would be if I had an engine failure at night, in the weather, in mountainous terrain and greased it in on a rain swept stretch of road! On the other hand, if a Mack truck happened to meet me going the other direction I would be branded as a foolhardy idiot. Timing is everything!
Excellent points from you and Russ, both. The old saying, a pat on the back and kick in the a$# are only 6 inches apart...
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  #35  
Old 12-05-2012, 12:23 PM
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Toobuilder Toobuilder is offline
 
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Cool Hello Kettle... Pot calling!

It strikes me as funny that we as a community look inward and assign various opinions about our fellow members. Some are "heroes" and some are "cowboys". Yet if we step up one more level, the general population thinks we are ALL nuts because we fly "little airplanes". The fact that we screw the airplanes together in our backyard makes even the most professional pilots among us look like Darwin Award candidates.

Whether you’re discussing horses, guns, motorcycles, fast cars, powerboats, free climbing, mountain bikes, running with the bulls, or a host of other activities, people have been attracted to “risky” behavior (and getting grief from the do gooders) since the beginning of time. In this perspective, the fact that “RV Joe” flies differently than RV Fred” is hardly worth discussing. At this point, the only value of discussion is for the entertainment of disagreement.
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  #36  
Old 12-05-2012, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ronschreck View Post
I like your thinking Russ. Just imagine what a hero I would be if I had an engine failure at night, in the weather, in mountainous terrain and greased it in on a rain swept stretch of road! On the other hand, if a Mack truck happened to meet me going the other direction I would be branded as a foolhardy idiot. Timing is everything!
On unrelated note was that you Ron who had full electric failure in a kerosene burner trapped on top back in the days? A transport of sort came to your rescue? I forgot the details but I remember position lights
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  #37  
Old 12-05-2012, 12:39 PM
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On unrelated note was that you Ron who had full electric failure in a kerosene burner trapped on top back in the days? A transport of sort came to your rescue? I forgot the details but I remember position lights
My word, what a memory you have! I was flying and A-7D and a C-130 led me down to a safe landing. All I saw of him for most of the trip was his right wing position light.
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  #38  
Old 12-05-2012, 02:32 PM
RV8R999 RV8R999 is offline
 
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rzbill and ronschreck, I agree with both of you. I think, as you have demonstrated, there are grey areas. However, it is how we deal with these that makes a difference. If it is in an informed way, with thought given to mitigating risk, I see it as being different to the 'cowboy' approach of poor consideration or poor self discipline. For example, IFR in a single over high terrain will be a different risk profile to planning via a route that minimises or excludes the terrain to mitigate risks of engine failure, icing etc. Flying formation aerobatics with a passenger by members of a well practiced team, appropriately qualified and briefed, is quite a different risk profile to doing the same thing unbriefed with an unskilled pilot. I am sure there are a multitude of other examples too.

Overall, I think having the discussion to bring the experience of others in to the way we think about our own operation is a good thing.

A big problem with snap judgements and over generalizations are the assumptions made by the ground observer that the pilot in question did not assess the risk, prepare for the manuever, or is unqualified to execute it.

"He who does not risk, cannot win!", John Paul jones.
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  #39  
Old 12-05-2012, 04:27 PM
chrish chrish is offline
 
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Originally Posted by RV8R999 View Post
A big problem with snap judgements and over generalizations are the assumptions made by the ground observer that the pilot in question did not assess the risk, prepare for the manuever, or is unqualified to execute it.

"He who does not risk, cannot win!", John Paul jones.
I see it the other way. It is not a problem to discuss preparation, decision making and self discipline on the ground. Such discussion is an important way to help encourage a safety culture. It is a safety culture, more so than rules, that will keep people alive to enjoy their aviation pursuits. The real problem is people not realising the consequences of their actions, and that is a safety issue.

Another example: An inexperienced pilot sees an inspiring handling display at an airshow. He thinks to himself, 'I have the same aircraft, I think I will give that a try'. Without experience and training, he goes out and tries to do the same thing and exceeds either his ability or that of the aircraft and crashes hurting himself and possibly others. Some might say that it is his right, he should have the freedom to make those decisions and if he makes a poor choice, such is life. I argue that there should be a system/culture that says - sure you can do that, however, this is the training required, this is how you do it safely and this is how you do it responsibly. Such a system does not reduce personal freedom, it just allows us to learn from the mistakes of those that have gone before us.

As for not discussing differences in how different pilots fly, sorry, I can't agree there. I have been a professional aviator for over 29 years, and every time I fly I critique the guy I am flying with and myself. This does not have to be a negative thing, or even a verbal discussion, but I do ask myself 'how could I have done that better' or if the other guy was flying 'why did ho do it that way' etc. I see discussions such as we are having now as a way of improving the safety knowledge base of all involved in that discussion. My background is military transport and training, then airline flying. Most of my single engine time is jet or turboprop with an ejection seat. I would expect that there will be considerations for flying an RV (when I eventually build mine) that I will gain through discussions like this, that I had not thought of. Those discussions will, I hope, make me safer. I would also expect that there may be some professional training and human factors issues that I might be able to bring to the discussion that may assist someone else.

I agree that endeavours that involve some degree of risk are exciting and lead to a more interesting and fulfilled like. Sport aviation is such a pursuit and I agree you cannot legislate all of the risk out of it. However, I think there is a big difference between doing something that involves risk and being reckless. With education we can enjoy the thrill while reducing the chances of something going wrong.
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  #40  
Old 12-05-2012, 06:33 PM
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Toobuilder Toobuilder is offline
 
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...As for not discussing differences in how different pilots fly, sorry, I can't agree there...
Discussion is good, but unfortunately, there is very little of that in threads like this. These threads are about passing judgment, and that is a waste of time in the big scheme of things. OTOH, if we were discussing how to properly execute a steep climbing turn at midfield - then there would be some value.

IIRC, George Carlin has a joke that essentially says: anyone who drives faster than you is a maniac, but anyone slower is a moron...

...seems to apply here.
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WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.

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