What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Brown tool kit....

Madredr1

Member
I did a search to find info on the browntool kit because its so much cheaper and didn't find any reviews in favor or against. Any input on this kit at all? The price is so much cheaper and that concerns me a little.

Thanks,

David
 
I bought the Brown kit when I started building. I haven't had any problems with the tools, and would purchase it again. Keep in mind that all of the tool kits are basically starter kits...you will end up purchasing many more tools during your build.
 
Brown tool kit

David,

I ordered the Brown kit and am reasonably satisfied with it. As Ethan said the kit is a starter kit , that's the same of all the tool kits. Some tools might apply to other RV's but not your version(Browns say that 'RV builders' have asked for these tools). It is difficult to tell if there is anything in the kit that you don't need(for the version you are building), and might be able to swap out. Check out specific tools in the kit

The riveting plate is also absent from the Brown kit, which I would've thought was a basic part of any tool kit. But overall I thought it a pretty good kit to get you started.
 
Last edited:
Me too

I purchased the Brown tool kit to start working on the -9A empennage and am satisfied with it but as mentioned, it is a starter kit. I think I'll have to get a few more different sized bucking bars because I'm having trouble riveting the forward most rivet in the horizontal stab.

The plastic grip on the cleco pliers has been sliding off with use but not a big deal.

Cheers,
 
I purchased the Brown tool kit when I started my -6A project about 11 years ago. It's now ready for the FAA to have a look, and the tools I got from Brown have all done well and have suffered more from infrequent use than anything else. Keep them well oiled and they will last for a long time.
 
Apples to Apples

The cost is really a difference of what is in the kit. I just had a customer on Wednesday ask the same thing. I made up a spreadsheet to detail the differences between the Cleaveland Kit and the Brown Kit. It can be found here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/34y2fgkoqcnc7aa/BrownRVToolKitReviewNov2012.xls

There are three sheets, one that shows all Brown items and CAT items indexed by item, one that shows if we deleted all items that were not in both kits to do a quick price comparison, and a third that shows what I would do if I was trying to only spend $1500. Personally the third option is not really something I would do as I believe in having the best quality tools you can get to make the process more enjoyable.


-Mike
 
Followup

To a question I received by email...
How complete is your kit vs. a starter kit?

When the RV7 kit was released I changed the kit to conform to the new hardware and procedures with the goal in mind of what I would want to build the AIRFRAME. There are plumbing and electrical, firewall forward, paint, fiberglass, and standard shop tools that are not included.

This kit is still essentially the same as our current offering. We tweak the clekos a bit for those building a -9 or a QB kit, and have an additions kit for those building a -10. All of our kits are with customization to meet the individual builder's needs.

We have made a few notable changes. First we deleted the angle drill kit and bits as the pre-punched kits drastically reduced the need for this. About half of the builders said that they didn't use the tool, the other half said that they could not have done it without. We added the #40 and #30 reamers as they do a much nicer job of enlarging an existing pre-punched hole and require very little deburring. The tight fit dimpling fixture was also added when it was developed to allow for easy dimpling of trailing edges of control ribs. Finally we were the first to carry, and the only ones to have in our kit the new Sioux 1416 6000rpm drill. This drill turns nearly twice as fast as the 3600rpm version that we originally had in our kits.

Some things that I would do different if it were my money... I would buy the pneumatic squeezer rather than the hand squeezer. I would add the tank dies, and substructure dies, swap the two bucking bars for the BBT-41 tungsten bar. Add a flange nose squeezer yoke, torque wrench, Boeing quick change tooling, and swap out the airhose kit for a deluxe airhose kit.

The above tools are not necessary, but for about $900 they will make the project much more pleasant and go faster with more consistent results. I have added a sheet and detailed the pricing on the spreadsheet linked in the prior post.

The torque wrench is needed during the assembly stage of the project. Some borrow them, but if you intend to own one, at the onset or at least into the wings is the time to buy one. Then as mentioned plumbing and electrical in the wings and fuse kits. As with any builder you will find things along the way that you will just want, but I am pretty confident that you could built the structure with the contents of our kit.

-Mike
 
Tool Kit

Definately add a tank die, substurcture die, and a small tungsten bar to any kit you pick. I don't want this to sound like a sales pitch but Cleaveland tools are made really well and they are great to deal with. I have a mix of many vendors in my tool box.

Chuck
 
Setting the Record Straight

@ Mike /CAT

Perhaps it was a simple mistake, but your spreadsheet indicates the Nova drill as being "made in the USA", this is in fact not correct. The Nova Palm Drill (yellow handle) is actually made in TAIWAN and imported into the USA by Pan American Tool - in fact, you can buy the drill directly from Pan American Tool for $113.00 at their website. I have actually met the Taiwanese gentleman who owns the factory where the Nova tool is manufactured. I can assure you that no pneumatic drill selling for $113 is manufactured in the USA.

Also, perhaps another mistake, but your spreadsheet also states that the Rivet Gun and bucking bars supplied in our kit are not capable of installing 3/16" rivets. This is also quite simply not true. The overwhelming majority of RV builders who purchase our kit select the 3X Rivet Gun and I can assure you that it is more than capable of installing a 3/16" rivet. In my career in the aviation industry, I have installed tens of thousands of rivets, I do not claim to be an expert on everything, but I do know rivet guns.

I stand by our statement that "the money you save by purchasing a tool kit from Brown Tool is money that you can invest in fuel or your avionics panel". We save RV builders real dollars. Our kit and its contents can be seen here:
http://www.browntool.com/Default.as...ductName,ProductNumber&Level=a&ProductID=2585


Michael Brown
Brown Aviation Tool Supply Co.
Oklahoma City, OK
www.browntool.com
1-800-587-3883
michael AT browntool.com
 
Although I have purchased most of my tools from Avery and Cleaveland, I have also occasionally bought a few items from Brown as well. All three of these companies are excellent businesses, run by top-notch people, and all three advertise here to support this one-of-a-kind place. We are blessed by their presence, and I appreciate them each individually. I can't speak to any of their tool kits, as I bought most of my tools here and there as I could afford them, but I've never been disappointed by any of these vendors.

I have noticed that Cleaveland and Avery seem to be a little more active on the forums, answering questions and participating more often, but the folks at Brown have been responsive enough any time I've needed help from them. Whatever you choose, don't put too much emphasis on price, as the value you are getting from high-quality tools is more than sufficient to justify the prices each of these companies are asking.

--
Stephen
 
The Pan American rep. tells me that the drill is US made. The quality reflects it. And I would guess that the case is made in China. Neither the box, nor the tool says anything USA or otherwise. They are closed today but I will be pushing them tomorrow to provide an answer.

However it is easy to get confused with Andy Wu's tool that looks like they cloned from the Pan Am. The Chinese version uses the same Hogue grip, the same US made bearings even (unless they are counterfeit which is a real possibility). Unfortunately Wu's drill is terrible quality. I have taken both drills apart, and unless it is in the gear reduction I can't see any visual difference. Oddly enough, when I put the good motor/gears into the Chinese case, it still runs terrible. I was confused when I saw the Wu drill as well, hoping to be able to buy from them, being competitive with Pan Am., rather than buying at retail from Pan Am. and having to mark them up.

Here is a photo of the two drills side by side. Night and day difference in operation. I have samples of a few dozen different tools from Andy in China and they are all the same. They look like the real thing, but are junk inside and would be nothing but a frustration.

Your right on the rivet guns, the 3X can do short 3/16" rivets. I don't know the maximum length, perhaps you could contribute that. The only 3/16" rivets in an RV are in the wing spar (unless there has been a change that I am not aware of). These 3/16 rivets now factory installed because of their length and difficulty to set. I may be remembering wrong but I believe you needed a 5X gun to set those.
 
First we deleted the angle drill kit and bits as the pre-punched kits drastically reduced the need for this.
-Mike

Mike, I received a similar "angle drill kit" with my Avery kit many years ago. It was the only tool I never used at all. An angle drill is all about access, and the Avery angle drill kit (like yours) is not self powering and thus must be connected to a standard drill. That makes the total configuration bulky and in many cases it struggles in tight spaces. It's really a very inadequate tool and I doubt any professional would use one.

So early on I bought a Pan American 90 degree drill with threaded drill bits. And I just love that tool. I'm a bit of an aircraft tool freak and have lots of them but that Pan American drill is absolutely one of my dead set favourites. Towards the end of my project as access space got tighter and tighter I probably used my 90 degree drill more than my standard Sioux drill and I cannot see how anyone could build a decent aircraft without one.
 
Last edited:
Advertisers

As for me, I have bought products from Avery and Cleveland and Grove and Aircraft Spruce and as the build progresses, I will be purchasing more products from the advertisers on this site. They help support the site, we need to support them. Doug just noted how many don't pay the $25 a year, I know this site has already saved me more than that in my build and I wondered why he wasn't charging more? He needs to be and I am sending him another donation to help. So, look at his numbers, more of us need to support this site, it helps so many and we need to support all the advertisers we can because they are helping us save money too.

Proud Paid Member since October 2012.
 
Brown Tool

The fact is that the RV community is very lucky to have several choices when it comes to tools. I and Bob Avery very rarely comment on VAF. Mike offers commentary fairly frequently, usually touting his company over the rest of us. I get that. We all have our strengths and each of us approach the market a little differently.

What started out as a question from a new builder about Brown Tool and then several positive comments about Brown Tool was hi-jacked and turned into an infomercial about CAT with a link to a spreadsheet that basically attacks the quality and/or makeup of our RV Tool Kit with some 'swipes' that were simply not true. That did not set well with me.

I suppose I could adopt the policy of offering a comment and a link to my website on just about every post regarding tools, but I am not sure that is the real spirit of VAF and it is not something I would be comfortable doing.

I have learned that RV builders are a passionate bunch and they are certainly passionate about their building choices. The forums are filled with examples of this. Builders that choose a particular tool supplier over another, or a particular RV model over another, or a particular primer over another:eek:, will offer their reasoning when asked and that is as it should be in my opinion. When we as suppliers chime in with our very biased opinions, objectivity is often lost. There is a fine line between offering technical advice or commentary and a self-promoting advertisement. Although I read the VAF forums just about every day, I very rarely comment unless I feel I have something objective and helpful to offer.

I went to work right out of high school building C-5B's and C-130's in the Lockheed plant in Marietta, Georgia. After getting laid off at Lockheed near the end of the C-5B program, I worked for several repair stations working on 727's, 737's, 747's, A300's, DC-8's. DC-10's, MD80's, and even L-188's, and a host of regional and corporate size aircraft before ending up in Oklahoma City where I worked for a very large aircraft repair station before heading out on my own and starting Brown Tool in 1991. From day one, we have had a strong relationship with the kit-building community and paticularly the RV community. One of my very first customers was an RV builder here in OKC.

We have advertised significantly on VAF for the past 7 or 8 years. We support the kit building community and value greatly this segment of our customer base. We recognize that we have some great competitors serving this market with us and that we will not always be the choice of the consumer. To those that do honor us with their business, we say thank you.

Michael Brown
Brown Aviation Tool Supply Co.
Oklahoma City, OK
www.browntool.com
1-800-587-3883
michael (AT) browntool.com
 
The yellow pan American drill was the best $113 I have ever spent! I don't know how they do it but it is equally as powerful and smooth as as the Sioux palm drill my mate fllashes around, trigger is perfect as well.
This was my consolation gift to myself for not attending Osh this year, pity I didn't have it when I built my aeroplane.
 
hi-jacked and turned into an infomercial about CAT with a link to a spreadsheet that basically attacks the quality and/or makeup of our RV Tool Kit with some 'swipes' that were simply not true. That did not set well with me.
@Browntool I am offering a comparison, the original posters noted that the tool kit was not complete. "Simply not true"? I question where that comes from?

I do contribute regularly on the forum and of course my opinions are reflected in what we sell. After all, one of the rules we have, is that we only sell what we personally would use. I strive to provide accurate information period. Our knowledge in this area is what sets us apart from the other tool vendors. Of course it ends up promoting our company, but it helps our friends in the building community at the same time. We direct customers to Brown and Avery every day for products that we don't carry. And we do so on the forums as well, it's in the archives. I think readers value input that is from a trusted source. Many longtime readers of VAF know who to listen to and how much... validity, to put on their opinions. New readers don't have that background and information from a trusted source means a lot. From now on I will include links to Brown and Avery along with any links I make to Cleaveland as to remain unbiased.

The Brown tool kit makes these two statements:
Compare the PRICE & QUALITY of our RV Aircraft Tool Kit with any other aircraft tool kit on the market (we have!).
So please, make an "apples to apples" comparison and when you do, we are confident that you will find we offer the absolute best value kit at the lowest delivered cost.
The spreadsheet simply does what Brown asks. Making it easier for customers to navigate this complex choice during this steep learning curve. And don't feel like we are picking on them, I plan to make up the same sheet for other competitors.

The way this spreadsheet started was due to a direct email from a customer who we had given a kit quote to, that later stated that he had ordered the Brown kit. From a marketing perspective I asked why he chose Brown. His reply was about the price, so I looked at the Brown website to see what was included, and read the statements quoted above. So I too wanted to compare the price and quality and the spreadsheet is what I came up with. I sent it to the customer and his reply reflected that he wished he would have known sooner. Unfortunately this was our own experience as a customer with our first tool kit, and that is what made us decide to get into the business of helping the RV community exclusively.

On the Nova drill, Tom the owner of Pan American called me today to follow up on the US made issue with the drill. It turns out that the reason they don't say 'Made in USA' on them is because they are assembled in the USA. The parts are manufactured in Taiwan, Canada, and Japan (different assemblies) and assembled by Phil Adams in Florida. Each unit is tested and inspected before shipping out. This is why we have experienced the high quality of low return rate that we have. We did not have the same experience when selling the imported CP tool (also branded by MAC tools and others). We like these tools that we buy them at retail $113 from PanAm and sell them for $150. Obviously we can't stay in business with no markup, and we hope that customers will see the value in the service and convenience we provide, and that that will be worth $37.

Back to the other tool shown in my post yesterday, and although not addressed by Michael at Brown Tool I assume this is the import he was referring to, Tom at Pan American said that The Yard had the Nova tool cloned in China and that is the tool they are currently selling shown below. They call it the "Texas Palm Drill", and that aligns with the "Texas Hand Squeezer" that was copied from the Tatco squeezer and imported from China. Looking at the photo below and comparing it to the sample that I posted yesterday it is clear they are the same manufacturer.
12670sm.jpg
 
Sorry!

I didn't mean to start a tool war or anything! The big thing that concerned me was the starter kit comments. I figured all kits were complete, I liked the idea of just buying all the tools up front and getting that expense out of the way...
 
I figured all kits were complete...

Realistically, I don't think any of the tool kits can be labeled as complete. The amount of tools you add during your build will be determined by how easily you want to accomplish certain tasks. I would suggest finding a builder in your area that is working on their fuselage or nearly finished with their wings. Take a look at the tools they have, and you will get an idea for what is needed beyond one of the kits.
 
+1 for Ethan's advice.

It's not so important where any of us bought our starter set. There are things to like and dislike in any set, from any supplier. The reason this is true is that people are all different, with different opinions about what they like and dislike.

I would also like to introduce you to what I call the "Harbor Freight" argument:

A tool's level of quality is subjective to begin with, but level of quality required for a particular task is something the builder has to decide. I find that for many tasks in my build, only the best quality will do. However, there are many other tasks that don't require tools of the highest pedigree, because perhaps they will only be used a few times. The degree to which a builder decides what quality to buy typically comes down to budget, but you have to decide what tools to spend your money on.

Practicing with the various tools out there is IMHO the best way to decide what you want to buy. It's the reason you will see many of the great tool suppliers at OSH with tents set up to try out their tools. Tapping your build buddies is another great way to try before you buy. In the end, no one can tell you what tools will be best for you... Try them out, then trust your gut. In the end, there WILL be tools you will replace anyway.:D :D
 
The range and quality of tools that you require may also be dictated by whether you build a QB or Slow-build project.

As an example, if you build a Slow-build then a pneumatic squeezer and a range of yokes is highly desirable in my opinion. If you're building a Slow-build it also makes sense to buy better quality tools because you will be using them for a much larger number of operations.
 
About to order

Its great to see 2 of the manufacturers posting. This thread has changed my mind about who I will order my kit from. Now I just have to decide on 2.. :). This will be my first Kit. Going to build a 7QB. Starting with the toolbox kit. May do two of them and maybe progress to the other practice kit. I want the DRDT-2 and the pnuematic squeezer. Do Both Browns and Cleveland offer these ? How would I go about getting a quote from either of you ? I have some tools already: drills, Punches, regular river puller.. I think I can substitute or delete items from your basic kits but Im finding it difficult to do online.
 
Both have pneumatic squeezers. Cleaveland has DRDT-2, but I couldn't find it on Brown website. Before investing in squeezer, give serious thought to the new hydro pneumatic system from Cleaveland, many advantages over conventional pneumatic squeezer.

http://www.cleavelandtool.com/prodinfo.asp?number=SHPS

As far as prices, I'm sure those would be posted on their respective websites.
 
Brown Tool Kit Can be CUSTOMIZED!

@ Jr Hampton,

Simply shoot me an e-mail with the list of items you want in your kit. Start with our basic RV kit and then let me know what you want deleted and what you want to add. We will adjust the price and discount accordingly and reply with a custom kit price. You can see our RV kit on our website here:
http://www.browntool.com/Default.as...ductName,ProductNumber&Level=a&ProductID=2585

You can e-mail me directly at: Michael "at" BrownTool.com

Keep in mind that we offer free shipping for any prepaid order over $95 to ANY address in the USA (including Alaska, Hawaii, DC, & APO/FPO addresses). :D

I have heard nothing but good things about the DRDT-2, but we do not sell it. The manufacturer, Experimental Aero, sells and ships it direct, so there is no need to pay me to get involved with that transaction. In fact, if you order the DRDT-2 from one of the other tool suppliers, it is actually drop shipped directly from Experimental Aero. You can see their website here: http://www.experimentalaero.com/DRDT-2.htm According to their website, you can buy the DRDT-2 direct for $370.00 plus shipping.

Thanks!

Michael Brown
Brown Aviation Tool Supply Co.
Oklahoma City, OK
www.browntool.com
michael "at" browntool.com
 
Last edited:
Not sure where you got $355 for the DRDT2 Mike. I see it as $370 on their website. Also, do you know what type of warranty they give on that? I don't see it mentioned on their website. Thanks
 
Brown Tool Kit

@ Diamond,

I think Experimental Aero must have updated their pricing this morning :). Last night when I looked at their website, it showed a price of $355.

As for the warranty, you would need to contact them, as I do not represent or distribute their product line because they sell and ship it direct. With that being said, I have heard nothing but good things about the quality of the DRDT-2, by all accounts it is a well made, quality tool.

Michael Brown
Brown Aviation Tool Supply Co.
Oklahoma City, OK
www.browntool.com
michael "at" browntool.com
 
I replied privately, but a couple notes that may be of interest...

With the QB kit you will need about half of the clekos required for the full kit (-10 exempt). I don't believe you need the edge forming tool. The C-frame/DRDT is only used on the tail and one skin of the wings, so you may want to borrow that.
 
Drill Bits & Reamers

You've got to have drill bits and reamers to do this work, and several different sizes. Chances are several will come with whatever kit you buy, but research it and add if necessary. You can always buy them later, but sure is convenient to have what you need when you need it. Below is some info I've been collecting from various posts -- have this taped to the wall in my shop.



-AN3 bolt (nominal 3/16" -- 0.186-0.189)
-> drill #13 (0.185) and ream #12 (0.189)

-AN4 bolt (nominal 1/4" -- 0.246-0.249)
-> drill #C (0.242) and ream 1/4 (0.250)

-AN5 bolt (nominal 5/16" -- 0.309-0.312)
-> drill #N (0.302) and ream 5/16 (0.3125)



Universal (button) head rivets and Flush head rivets (countersunk surface):
-3 rivets use a #40 drill bit
-4 rivets use a #30 drill bit

Flush head rivets (dimpled surface):
-3 rivets use a #41 drill bit and 3/32" dimple die
-4 rivets use a 1/8" drill bit and 1/8" dimple die

Flush screws (countersunk surface):
#6 screws use a #28 drill bit
#8 screws use a #19 drill bit (or #18 to avoid cracks)
#10 screws use a #11 drill bit

Flush screws (dimpled surface):
#6 screws use a #29 drill bit and a #6 screw dimple die (no substitute)
#8 screws use a #20 drill bit and a #8 screw dimple die (5/32" dimple die is a close substitute)
#10 screws use a #12 drill bit and a #10 screw dimple die (3/16" dimple die is a close substitute)



#40 drill bit for all -3 rivets (426 and 470)
#30 Drill bit for all -4 rivets (426 and 470)
#28 drill bit for #6 screws
#19 drill bit for #8 screws
#12 drill bit for#10 screws

The advice to ensure the #8 and #10 holes are well deburred before dimpling is spot on.
 
About to order

Thanks to both companies for replying. It's good to know both have excellent customer service. Excited to get started finally. Guess it's approaching time to join EAA and pay me dues here as Im sure im going to be using the board here A LOT.
 
If the hydro pneumatic squeezers is the way to go, then should you also invest in the hydro pneumatic DRDT power head? The intensifier could be used for both tools. COrrect? Plus you don't use both tools at the same time. Correct? Am I missing something?

I plan to slow build an RV-10.

The squeezer looks much lighter than the regular squeezer. The dimpler would be much quieter and save on the repetitive nature of dimpling. Much easier on the joints.
 
This was discussed awhile back on another thread, but I don't recall what the verdict was on using one intensifier for two tools. If you remove the hose when you change tools, it introduces a small amount of air into the system. This air needs to be bled off occasionally. As the whether you can plumb two lines from the same intensifier? Maybe someone else can chime in on that.
 
The system gets very little air during a tool change. Some customers have said that if they put a drop of ATF on the plug when attaching they never get any air in the system. As for operating two tools from one intensifier, you would have to be able to put two shutoffs in the lines that could handle 3000psi. Simply unplugging one tool would not work because the connectors are not rated for full pressure when disconnected. Also unplugging would get back to the air inclusion... If both hoses left open there would not be enough fluid capacity in the intensifier to operate either one of the tools to the full range of motion. They really work well as designed.
 
Back
Top