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  #21  
Old 11-17-2012, 10:25 PM
n761tj n761tj is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erich weaver View Post
Ernst, There is no single quantitative answer to your question. All the water produced by combustion will be in the vapor phase initially due to the high temperatures. A small portion of that vapor will mix with your oil, and if your oil is below the boiling temp of water, it can condense and exist as liquid water.

I think we may be getting hung up on the volume issue here when the point is that there is a pathway for water to enter your oil and that can lead to rust. There are ways to minimize it, but it's likely always there in small amounts. Also, keep in mind the power point presentation is likely a set of notes for a talking presentation, so we are not viewing the full presentation. I doubt the presenter ever intended to suggest that there is a gallon or more of liquid water in your oil sump at any time.

Regards
Erich
DING DING DING You are correct! It is NOT a stand alone presentation.

When you burn a gallon (6 pounds) of fuel mixed with 90 pounds of air you get about a gallon of water (if condensed). MOST of the water vapor goes out the exhaust but a significant amount goes into the crankcase as part of the blow-by gas. I have measured water levels in used oils ranging from 100 to 1000 ppm. You can observe liquid water in engines that are started and ground run during the winter months.

The corrosion rates increase dramatically when the water is acidified by the organic acids formed by the oxidized blow-by fuel components (these fuel components cause virtually all the deposits in the engine).

Camguard does not neutralize acids. It has multi-metal inhibitors to prevent corrosion and it also prevents acids from forming as demonstrated by the lack of deposits in the engines that use it.

Camguard is CONCEPTUALLY what I designed for the Exxon Elite. Exxon decided to copy the Aeroshell 15W-50 and not use any of my "exotic" and "expensive" ideas. I formulated Camguard after I left Exxon. There are NO similarities or common additives between Camguard and Elite. The Elite contains Tricresyl phosphate (TCP) anti-wear, 0.05% rust inhibitor, 0.05% copper inhibitor and a dispersant viscosity modifier which differentiates it from the AS 15W-50. This dispersant viscosity modifier holds a lot of water in the oil and can cause sludging in cool running engines.

Ed
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  #22  
Old 11-17-2012, 10:53 PM
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erich weaver erich weaver is offline
 
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Thanks for weighing in on this Ed. Always nice to get the info straight from the original source.
Erich
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  #23  
Old 11-18-2012, 07:20 AM
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DanH DanH is offline
 
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Mr. Kollin,
Thank you for posting. Could you address a few questions please?

How do you feel about oil separator breather systems? The obvious issue is the return of separated oil to the crankcase. How much of the water and acids remain in the vapor phase and proceed past the separator to the atmosphere? Or does it all return to the crankcase dissolved in the oil?

Page 17 of the powerpoint notes rapid temperature changes and scuffing. A recent subject of discussion here was ECI's warning about rapid leaning. Would you have any comment on the "Big Mixture Pull" and the potential (if any) for rapid piston temperature rise?
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  #24  
Old 11-18-2012, 07:51 PM
David-aviator David-aviator is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n761tj View Post
DING DING DING You are correct! It is NOT a stand alone presentation.

When you burn a gallon (6 pounds) of fuel mixed with 90 pounds of air you get about a gallon of water (if condensed). MOST of the water vapor goes out the exhaust but a significant amount goes into the crankcase as part of the blow-by gas. I have measured water levels in used oils ranging from 100 to 1000 ppm. You can observe liquid water in engines that are started and ground run during the winter months.

The corrosion rates increase dramatically when the water is acidified by the organic acids formed by the oxidized blow-by fuel components (these fuel components cause virtually all the deposits in the engine).

Camguard does not neutralize acids. It has multi-metal inhibitors to prevent corrosion and it also prevents acids from forming as demonstrated by the lack of deposits in the engines that use it.

Camguard is CONCEPTUALLY what I designed for the Exxon Elite. Exxon decided to copy the Aeroshell 15W-50 and not use any of my "exotic" and "expensive" ideas. I formulated Camguard after I left Exxon. There are NO similarities or common additives between Camguard and Elite. The Elite contains Tricresyl phosphate (TCP) anti-wear, 0.05% rust inhibitor, 0.05% copper inhibitor and a dispersant viscosity modifier which differentiates it from the AS 15W-50. This dispersant viscosity modifier holds a lot of water in the oil and can cause sludging in cool running engines.

Ed
Thanks for contributing to this forum, Ed.

I've used Avblend for years believing it prevents corrosion.

I got hooked on the product years ago after a tour of their factory just south of Chicago when they shared a building with an engine overhaul shop (Blue Print Engines). The 2 companies may have been financially connected, I don't know; they also built Indy 500 engines and were testing a Northstar on their dyno that day developing something like 700 HP.

Mike Busch believes in Camguard and has endorsed it. That says something in this business.

Sean D. Tucker uses Avblend religiously - 2 cans with every oil change. That also says something.

Would you care to comment on the difference between the two?

I do not wish to put down either product - just hope both work as advertised.
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  #25  
Old 11-18-2012, 08:25 PM
n761tj n761tj is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanH View Post
Mr. Kollin,
Thank you for posting. Could you address a few questions please?

How do you feel about oil separator breather systems? The obvious issue is the return of separated oil to the crankcase. How much of the water and acids remain in the vapor phase and proceed past the separator to the atmosphere? Or does it all return to the crankcase dissolved in the oil?

Page 17 of the powerpoint notes rapid temperature changes and scuffing. A recent subject of discussion here was ECI's warning about rapid leaning. Would you have any comment on the "Big Mixture Pull" and the potential (if any) for rapid piston temperature rise?
I dislike air/oil on aircraft because of the chemical activity of the blow-by gasses and aircraft engines produce a lot of blow-by. ANY blow-by returned to the sump is bad.

I do not believe in shock cooling. There is a case to be made for shock heating when applying full power to cold cylinders. I don't believe raising the EGT from 1350 to 1500 degrees (CHT's change little) when doing the "Big Pull" does anything at all.

Ed
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  #26  
Old 11-18-2012, 08:26 PM
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rocketbob rocketbob is offline
 
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Ed, what do you think of running one of the newer diesel oils designed to work with particulate filters, such as Mobil 1 ESP Formula M?
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N9187P PA-24-260B Comanche, flying
N678X F1 Rocket, under const.
N244BJ RV-6 "victim of SNF tornado" 1200+ hrs, rebuilding
N8155F C150 flying
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Not a thing I own is stock.
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  #27  
Old 11-18-2012, 08:43 PM
n761tj n761tj is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David-aviator View Post
Thanks for contributing to this forum, Ed.

I've used Avblend for years believing it prevents corrosion.

I got hooked on the product years ago after a tour of their factory just south of Chicago when they shared a building with an engine overhaul shop (Blue Print Engines). The 2 companies may have been financially connected, I don't know; they also built Indy 500 engines and were testing a Northstar on their dyno that day developing something like 700 HP.

Mike Busch believes in Camguard and has endorsed it. That says something in this business.

Sean D. Tucker uses Avblend religiously - 2 cans with every oil change. That also says something.

Would you care to comment on the difference between the two?

I do not wish to put down either product - just hope both work as advertised.
Avblend is a single component, thin mineral oil. It was created in the 1950's.

Some people swear it helps with valve sticking. If it works for you great!

I have tested it thoroughly for wear and corrosion protection and it only hurts performance because it thins the oil reducing the oil film thickness. The thinner oil is what gives them the claim of better fuel economy. It evaporates in about 5 hours in most aircraft.

Camguard is comprised of 11 high performance additives and is 100% active with no diluents. We offer demonstrable proof of performance in rust and corrosion protection, deposit control (the only product to do so), wear reduction and seal conditioning/protection.

Avblend sponsors Sean Tucker, which is fine.

It took Mike Busch 2 years to test Camguard for himself. He is not on our payroll.

You should look at both companies data and judge for yourself.

Ed
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  #28  
Old 11-18-2012, 08:46 PM
n761tj n761tj is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketbob View Post
Ed, what do you think of running one of the newer diesel oils designed to work with particulate filters, such as Mobil 1 ESP Formula M?
Run it in what? You certainly wouldn't to run it in an aircraft engine because of the metallic additive content.

Ed
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  #29  
Old 11-18-2012, 09:37 PM
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rocketbob rocketbob is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n761tj View Post
Run it in what? You certainly wouldn't to run it in an aircraft engine because of the metallic additive content.

Ed
Yep. I have a friend that mixes Phillips Tropartic with X/C and is working with an engineer from Phillips who regularly samples his oil. Troparctic is high in ZDDP, is that what you are concerned with? As I understand it the newer diesel oils are made to work with particulate filters and have to be low in ZDDP to avoid getting ash deposits in them.
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Bob Japundza CFI A&PIA
N9187P PA-24-260B Comanche, flying
N678X F1 Rocket, under const.
N244BJ RV-6 "victim of SNF tornado" 1200+ hrs, rebuilding
N8155F C150 flying
N7925P PA-24-250 Comanche, restoring
Not a thing I own is stock.
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  #30  
Old 11-19-2012, 06:31 AM
6 Gun 6 Gun is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 846
Cool Avblend

Bought a 182 from up north that used Exxon 15-50 and two cans of avblend every 25hrs oil change had cyl in 400hrs so I started to wonder what went wrong in my thinking heres what happened . Cold engine 15w oil when cold add two cans of avblend maybe 5w maybe 10w on take offf when you need the best protection dont get it till engine gets hot.looked at msds sheet and seen that avblend was 99% mineral spirits and hydrofluoric acid .You might want to see whats in Cam guard before you run it. they have some nice T shirts though.
Bob
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