VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

  #11  
Old 10-29-2012, 04:28 PM
clevtool's Avatar
clevtool clevtool is offline
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Boone, Iowa
Posts: 342
Default

The Pan American rep. tells me that the drill is US made. The quality reflects it. And I would guess that the case is made in China. Neither the box, nor the tool says anything USA or otherwise. They are closed today but I will be pushing them tomorrow to provide an answer.

However it is easy to get confused with Andy Wu's tool that looks like they cloned from the Pan Am. The Chinese version uses the same Hogue grip, the same US made bearings even (unless they are counterfeit which is a real possibility). Unfortunately Wu's drill is terrible quality. I have taken both drills apart, and unless it is in the gear reduction I can't see any visual difference. Oddly enough, when I put the good motor/gears into the Chinese case, it still runs terrible. I was confused when I saw the Wu drill as well, hoping to be able to buy from them, being competitive with Pan Am., rather than buying at retail from Pan Am. and having to mark them up.

Here is a photo of the two drills side by side. Night and day difference in operation. I have samples of a few dozen different tools from Andy in China and they are all the same. They look like the real thing, but are junk inside and would be nothing but a frustration.

Your right on the rivet guns, the 3X can do short 3/16" rivets. I don't know the maximum length, perhaps you could contribute that. The only 3/16" rivets in an RV are in the wing spar (unless there has been a change that I am not aware of). These 3/16 rivets now factory installed because of their length and difficulty to set. I may be remembering wrong but I believe you needed a 5X gun to set those.
__________________
Mike Lauritsen
-
Cleaveland Aircraft Tool
800-368-1822
www.CleavelandTool.com
mike.toolman (at) gmail.com

Like on Facebook - Follow on Twitter - See on YouTube
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-29-2012, 05:46 PM
Captain Avgas Captain Avgas is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,868
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by clevtool View Post
First we deleted the angle drill kit and bits as the pre-punched kits drastically reduced the need for this.
-Mike
Mike, I received a similar "angle drill kit" with my Avery kit many years ago. It was the only tool I never used at all. An angle drill is all about access, and the Avery angle drill kit (like yours) is not self powering and thus must be connected to a standard drill. That makes the total configuration bulky and in many cases it struggles in tight spaces. It's really a very inadequate tool and I doubt any professional would use one.

So early on I bought a Pan American 90 degree drill with threaded drill bits. And I just love that tool. I'm a bit of an aircraft tool freak and have lots of them but that Pan American drill is absolutely one of my dead set favourites. Towards the end of my project as access space got tighter and tighter I probably used my 90 degree drill more than my standard Sioux drill and I cannot see how anyone could build a decent aircraft without one.
__________________
You’re only as good as your last landing
Bob Barrow
RV7A

Last edited by Captain Avgas : 10-29-2012 at 06:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-29-2012, 06:13 PM
DDUCH DDUCH is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: HAZEN, AR
Posts: 31
Default Advertisers

As for me, I have bought products from Avery and Cleveland and Grove and Aircraft Spruce and as the build progresses, I will be purchasing more products from the advertisers on this site. They help support the site, we need to support them. Doug just noted how many don't pay the $25 a year, I know this site has already saved me more than that in my build and I wondered why he wasn't charging more? He needs to be and I am sending him another donation to help. So, look at his numbers, more of us need to support this site, it helps so many and we need to support all the advertisers we can because they are helping us save money too.

Proud Paid Member since October 2012.
__________________
David
RV-8 Builder
N558DD reserved
Dues Paid
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-30-2012, 12:40 AM
BrownTool BrownTool is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Oklahoma City (A GREAT Place to live!)
Posts: 82
Exclamation Brown Tool

The fact is that the RV community is very lucky to have several choices when it comes to tools. I and Bob Avery very rarely comment on VAF. Mike offers commentary fairly frequently, usually touting his company over the rest of us. I get that. We all have our strengths and each of us approach the market a little differently.

What started out as a question from a new builder about Brown Tool and then several positive comments about Brown Tool was hi-jacked and turned into an infomercial about CAT with a link to a spreadsheet that basically attacks the quality and/or makeup of our RV Tool Kit with some 'swipes' that were simply not true. That did not set well with me.

I suppose I could adopt the policy of offering a comment and a link to my website on just about every post regarding tools, but I am not sure that is the real spirit of VAF and it is not something I would be comfortable doing.

I have learned that RV builders are a passionate bunch and they are certainly passionate about their building choices. The forums are filled with examples of this. Builders that choose a particular tool supplier over another, or a particular RV model over another, or a particular primer over another, will offer their reasoning when asked and that is as it should be in my opinion. When we as suppliers chime in with our very biased opinions, objectivity is often lost. There is a fine line between offering technical advice or commentary and a self-promoting advertisement. Although I read the VAF forums just about every day, I very rarely comment unless I feel I have something objective and helpful to offer.

I went to work right out of high school building C-5B's and C-130's in the Lockheed plant in Marietta, Georgia. After getting laid off at Lockheed near the end of the C-5B program, I worked for several repair stations working on 727's, 737's, 747's, A300's, DC-8's. DC-10's, MD80's, and even L-188's, and a host of regional and corporate size aircraft before ending up in Oklahoma City where I worked for a very large aircraft repair station before heading out on my own and starting Brown Tool in 1991. From day one, we have had a strong relationship with the kit-building community and paticularly the RV community. One of my very first customers was an RV builder here in OKC.

We have advertised significantly on VAF for the past 7 or 8 years. We support the kit building community and value greatly this segment of our customer base. We recognize that we have some great competitors serving this market with us and that we will not always be the choice of the consumer. To those that do honor us with their business, we say thank you.

Michael Brown
Brown Aviation Tool Supply Co.
Oklahoma City, OK
www.browntool.com
1-800-587-3883
michael (AT) browntool.com
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-30-2012, 05:09 AM
Doug's Avatar
Doug Doug is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 427
Default

The yellow pan American drill was the best $113 I have ever spent! I don't know how they do it but it is equally as powerful and smooth as as the Sioux palm drill my mate fllashes around, trigger is perfect as well.
This was my consolation gift to myself for not attending Osh this year, pity I didn't have it when I built my aeroplane.
__________________
Doug Gray
RV-6 completed, flying since July 2010
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10-30-2012, 10:55 AM
clevtool's Avatar
clevtool clevtool is offline
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Boone, Iowa
Posts: 342
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrownTool View Post
hi-jacked and turned into an infomercial about CAT with a link to a spreadsheet that basically attacks the quality and/or makeup of our RV Tool Kit with some 'swipes' that were simply not true. That did not set well with me.
@Browntool I am offering a comparison, the original posters noted that the tool kit was not complete. "Simply not true"? I question where that comes from?

I do contribute regularly on the forum and of course my opinions are reflected in what we sell. After all, one of the rules we have, is that we only sell what we personally would use. I strive to provide accurate information period. Our knowledge in this area is what sets us apart from the other tool vendors. Of course it ends up promoting our company, but it helps our friends in the building community at the same time. We direct customers to Brown and Avery every day for products that we don't carry. And we do so on the forums as well, it's in the archives. I think readers value input that is from a trusted source. Many longtime readers of VAF know who to listen to and how much... validity, to put on their opinions. New readers don't have that background and information from a trusted source means a lot. From now on I will include links to Brown and Avery along with any links I make to Cleaveland as to remain unbiased.

The Brown tool kit makes these two statements:
Quote:
Compare the PRICE & QUALITY of our RV Aircraft Tool Kit with any other aircraft tool kit on the market (we have!).
Quote:
So please, make an "apples to apples" comparison and when you do, we are confident that you will find we offer the absolute best value kit at the lowest delivered cost.
The spreadsheet simply does what Brown asks. Making it easier for customers to navigate this complex choice during this steep learning curve. And don't feel like we are picking on them, I plan to make up the same sheet for other competitors.

The way this spreadsheet started was due to a direct email from a customer who we had given a kit quote to, that later stated that he had ordered the Brown kit. From a marketing perspective I asked why he chose Brown. His reply was about the price, so I looked at the Brown website to see what was included, and read the statements quoted above. So I too wanted to compare the price and quality and the spreadsheet is what I came up with. I sent it to the customer and his reply reflected that he wished he would have known sooner. Unfortunately this was our own experience as a customer with our first tool kit, and that is what made us decide to get into the business of helping the RV community exclusively.

On the Nova drill, Tom the owner of Pan American called me today to follow up on the US made issue with the drill. It turns out that the reason they don't say 'Made in USA' on them is because they are assembled in the USA. The parts are manufactured in Taiwan, Canada, and Japan (different assemblies) and assembled by Phil Adams in Florida. Each unit is tested and inspected before shipping out. This is why we have experienced the high quality of low return rate that we have. We did not have the same experience when selling the imported CP tool (also branded by MAC tools and others). We like these tools that we buy them at retail $113 from PanAm and sell them for $150. Obviously we can't stay in business with no markup, and we hope that customers will see the value in the service and convenience we provide, and that that will be worth $37.

Back to the other tool shown in my post yesterday, and although not addressed by Michael at Brown Tool I assume this is the import he was referring to, Tom at Pan American said that The Yard had the Nova tool cloned in China and that is the tool they are currently selling shown below. They call it the "Texas Palm Drill", and that aligns with the "Texas Hand Squeezer" that was copied from the Tatco squeezer and imported from China. Looking at the photo below and comparing it to the sample that I posted yesterday it is clear they are the same manufacturer.
__________________
Mike Lauritsen
-
Cleaveland Aircraft Tool
800-368-1822
www.CleavelandTool.com
mike.toolman (at) gmail.com

Like on Facebook - Follow on Twitter - See on YouTube
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-03-2012, 12:52 AM
Madredr1's Avatar
Madredr1 Madredr1 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Deforest, WI
Posts: 17
Default Sorry!

I didn't mean to start a tool war or anything! The big thing that concerned me was the starter kit comments. I figured all kits were complete, I liked the idea of just buying all the tools up front and getting that expense out of the way...
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-03-2012, 09:09 AM
esjacoby77 esjacoby77 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 131
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madredr1 View Post
I figured all kits were complete...
Realistically, I don't think any of the tool kits can be labeled as complete. The amount of tools you add during your build will be determined by how easily you want to accomplish certain tasks. I would suggest finding a builder in your area that is working on their fuselage or nearly finished with their wings. Take a look at the tools they have, and you will get an idea for what is needed beyond one of the kits.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-03-2012, 09:53 AM
ppilotmike's Avatar
ppilotmike ppilotmike is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 1,967
Default +1 for Ethan's advice.

It's not so important where any of us bought our starter set. There are things to like and dislike in any set, from any supplier. The reason this is true is that people are all different, with different opinions about what they like and dislike.

I would also like to introduce you to what I call the "Harbor Freight" argument:

A tool's level of quality is subjective to begin with, but level of quality required for a particular task is something the builder has to decide. I find that for many tasks in my build, only the best quality will do. However, there are many other tasks that don't require tools of the highest pedigree, because perhaps they will only be used a few times. The degree to which a builder decides what quality to buy typically comes down to budget, but you have to decide what tools to spend your money on.

Practicing with the various tools out there is IMHO the best way to decide what you want to buy. It's the reason you will see many of the great tool suppliers at OSH with tents set up to try out their tools. Tapping your build buddies is another great way to try before you buy. In the end, no one can tell you what tools will be best for you... Try them out, then trust your gut. In the end, there WILL be tools you will replace anyway.
__________________
Mike Rettig
EAA Chapter 301 www.eaa301.org
VAF Dues Current
RV-10 Working on the "Dreaded Doors"
http://www.mykitlog.com/users/index....ig&project=803
F-14 (Pedal Plane - Daughter's Project) "Flying"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKCyX2FXrlw
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-03-2012, 06:05 PM
Captain Avgas Captain Avgas is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,868
Default

The range and quality of tools that you require may also be dictated by whether you build a QB or Slow-build project.

As an example, if you build a Slow-build then a pneumatic squeezer and a range of yokes is highly desirable in my opinion. If you're building a Slow-build it also makes sense to buy better quality tools because you will be using them for a much larger number of operations.
__________________
You’re only as good as your last landing
Bob Barrow
RV7A
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:07 AM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.