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09-14-2012, 12:55 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 1,125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az_gila
Helicopters are different - they must have been doing something else -
From the rest of FAR 91.119 not in the original posting..
(d) ?Helicopters. ?Helicopters may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed In paragraph (b) or (c) of this section if the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface. In addition, each person operating a helicopter shall comply with routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the Administrator.
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You can be legal in the eyes of the FAA and still get a fine for flying into the sanctuary. Somebody other than the FAA would levy the fine I would imagine.
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Kelly Johnson
San Jose, CA
RV-9A
Pink slip issued: 5/7/12
First flight: 5/28/12, Memorial Day.
Phase I Complete: 8/18/12!
2020 donation: complete
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09-14-2012, 01:24 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
Posts: 10,011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArVeeNiner
You can be legal in the eyes of the FAA and still get a fine for flying into the sanctuary. Somebody other than the FAA would levy the fine I would imagine.
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I didn't think the posting I responded to was talking about a marine sanctuary...
__________________
Gil Alexander
EAA Technical Counselor, Airframe Mechanic
Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
RV-6A N61GX - finally flying
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ
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09-14-2012, 02:10 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Utah
Posts: 8,151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geeman
Got me to thinking, how low can you legally fly above the water, assuming you are not close to people, boats, rigs, etc. I could not remember from my written test, so I pulled this from FAR's.
Sec. 91.119 ? Minimum safe altitudes: General.
Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:
(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.
(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.
(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.
My interpretation of this, is the T-6 was legal, but the military turboprop was not. Maybe the Navy has special rules that allow them to.
I am not trying to start a debate whether flying a 100 feet off the water is safe or not, just if it is legal.
Am I interpreting this right?
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Here in NY we have a chunk of airspace along the shoreline under Class B we routinely fly VFR 400' and below with a code from JFK. It is perfectly legal but depending on the season not that simple. In case of power plant failure one can have wet footprint because beaches are packed with people and you can't go there. Late winter segulls are so active that dodging them you might drop a hundred feet or so. Very rare but you may get into a wake by a heavy ATC will give you early warning.
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09-14-2012, 02:13 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Broomfield, CO
Posts: 639
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geeman
I was in Destin last week on the beach and a large 4 prop military plane flew over the beach at probably 200'.
My interpretation of this, is the T-6 was legal, but the military turboprop was not.
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Kyle,
Keep in mind, the area you are talking about not only lies within Class Delta owned by Eglin AFB, but also lies under restricted airspace of the Eglin complex and has special flight rules that requires a clearance to operate in. I guarantee that c-130 was legal and talking to ATC.
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RV-7 Flying since 2004
1,100 hrs+
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09-14-2012, 02:30 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
Posts: 10,768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geeman
My interpretation of this, is the T-6 was legal, but the military turboprop was not. Maybe the Navy has special rules that allow them to.
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The FARs do not apply to military operations!
__________________
Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
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09-14-2012, 05:51 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Broomfield, CO
Posts: 639
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mel
The FARs do not apply to military operations!
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Unless they're in some kind of SUA such as restricted airspace, then they most certainly do apply to mil ops.
__________________
RV-7 Flying since 2004
1,100 hrs+
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09-15-2012, 10:26 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Western US
Posts: 98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArVeeNiner
You can be legal in the eyes of the FAA and still get a fine for flying into the sanctuary. Somebody other than the FAA would levy the fine I would imagine.
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Apparently, NOAA would levy the fine. http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/article...-a-gamble.html
What I'm wondering is how will they actually read my tiny 3" tail numbers?  I'm often right at the 1000 foot requirement, and don't want some NOAA guy on the ground deciding I deserve a $100k fine.
"The regulation creates a presumption that any pilot who flies below 1,000 feet msl in the vicinity of one of the protected sanctuaries (or below 2,000 feet msl in some areas) has disturbed the wildlife there. Penalties will be based on observations from the ground by personnel who do not necessarily have any aviation knowledge, training, or specialized equipment to make accurate calculations of an aircraft’s altitude."
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09-15-2012, 10:51 AM
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 1,324
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Interesting "spin" from the AOPA. They fail to mention that NOAA has a fleet of aircraft flown by people that have "aviation knowlege." Not that they are out looking for violations, they are doing research and surveys, but they sure could report something they saw. By the way, 3" N numbers are not much help against being tagged by radar.
John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aryana
Apparently, NOAA would levy the fine. http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/article...-a-gamble.html
What I'm wondering is how will they actually read my tiny 3" tail numbers?  I'm often right at the 1000 foot requirement, and don't want some NOAA guy on the ground deciding I deserve a $100k fine.
"The regulation creates a presumption that any pilot who flies below 1,000 feet msl in the vicinity of one of the protected sanctuaries (or below 2,000 feet msl in some areas) has disturbed the wildlife there. Penalties will be based on observations from the ground by personnel who do not necessarily have any aviation knowledge, training, or specialized equipment to make accurate calculations of an aircraft’s altitude."
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Last edited by John Clark : 09-15-2012 at 10:53 AM.
Reason: Typo
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09-15-2012, 10:58 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 1,499
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Fly higher and leave some margin for yourself, wildlife and wildlife observers. If I want to see the ground rush by, I'll look out my car window. If I want to see the water rush by, I'll rent a boat. If I want to see the clouds rush by, I'll hop in the plane. Minimums will get us in trouble in more ways than we think.
I would think with manned or unmanned aircraft, radar and satellites it would not be hard to catch someone. I won't be testing their technology to find out.
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Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
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