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POSTING RULES

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09-03-2012, 06:49 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Gloversville, NY
Posts: 1,587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonFromTX
I just got email notification of another "wrinkle skin" damage in central PA, that makes 8 of them. He had not checked for channel cracking yet, but desires to not be named or identified by plane ID.
As someone said, it does seem strange that only RV12s get the poor pilots, the good ones apparently are buying Skycatchers, Sonex, and Zeniths and not having this type problem due to their superior piloting skils  ..
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Don, I can't help but wonder how you became a clearing house for this and other information about the RV-12. How is it that you get emails from people about this problem and others? And who are these shadowy people out there that confide in you, but don't have the guts to identify themselves?
As to your closing statement - you are beginning to sound a lot like the fellow in Florida, who unfortunatley passed away some time ago, that was always carping about Van's Aircraft, but yet continued to build RV-12's. I can't help but wonder why you are building a Van's product, if the others you named are so superior.
As to this thread - It is so full of rumors and guesses as to be pretty much useless, it seems to me. If there is a real problem, other than pilots making bad landings, then factual and detailed information needs to go directly to Van's for their evaluation and action. I will inspect my airplane next time to the hangar, and if I find any cracks I will deal with Van's directly, and I urge all other responsible owners to do the same.
__________________
John Peck, CFII, A&P, EAA Tech Counselor, Flight Advisor.
?Master Pilot? Award, UFO Member.
RV-12 N37JP 120176 Flying since 2012.
One Week Wonder Build Team, OSH 2018.
VAF paid through 10/2019.
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09-03-2012, 07:10 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Riley TWP MI
Posts: 3,070
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The problem with communicating with written words is that one can not see facial expressions or hear the tone of voice. It is easy to assume that someone is complaining when actually they are joking. I like Don's sense of humor. I think that one rule we should all abide by is that we should not post something that we would not actually say to someone face to face.
I want to thank Don for bringing this structural damage to our attention.
Joe Gores
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09-03-2012, 07:40 AM
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: Spring Hill Fl
Posts: 734
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Respect Given
Big John with all due Respect and I do respect your opinion.
I am one of those shadowy people out here that most of time don't have the guts or the permission to post the phone conversations or the emails that I get from EAB 12 Builders who don't want to get beat up by Builders who think we should build strictly to the plans. Vans builds Great Aircraft and because of the ELSA rules the 12 EAB is not accepted as well as the rest of the EAB fleet. More people would post if they would be respected for their opinion and just ignored if they don't agree.
This Forum is a great place to keep us informed and could be better if we don't criticized people for their opinion
My View
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09-03-2012, 07:41 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: La Feria Texas
Posts: 3,822
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Long Response to Questions
Good questions John.
How I got in the center of this starts with Ron Russ noting his damage after hearing noises when landing he could not identify. He had grown quite hostile about the mud slinging when something like this is mentioned on VAF, does not do photos, and asked me to post his misfortune for others to ponder. At that time it seemed like a single incident he caused by a hard landing. I did that for him, and for what I considered a favor for other owners who might encounter the same fate. I never wished to become a "clearing house" for this or any other problem. For some reason I don't understand, I then became a "wailing wall" for those who had the same damage and did not wish to post it on VAF (probably for the same reasons that show up in this thread, you will get accused of all sorts of things just for bringing it up, and as you might have noticed, many people have no idea how to post photos on the forum). I never resort to name calling, but those you call "shadowy figures" will have to speak for themselves.
After at least two people tried to bring it to the attention of Vans, and were rebuffed with the old story that the plane is just fine since it met some alphabet standards, it is poor pilots that are causing the problem, and in each case were told "this is the first we heard of this" which was not entirely true, it caused someone to say to me what I quoted as their response. I never said it was MY opinion, I still think the RV12 is the finest LSA out there, bar none - and even if it turns out that the landing gear needs a little stiffener or something. Good grief fellows, did you not know it is an EXPERIMENTAL aircraft?
I never intended this thread to be some statistical refined definition of the problem with readily available solutions, but simply a FORUM where others with similar problems or suggested solutions can communicate. I just don't agree with many that feel that ANY criticism of the RV12 should be swept under the carpet and never ever mentioned publicly. The reporting system that Scott mentioned is perfectly proper for reporting these things to Vans, but it appears it is not widely used, or is not effective in informing other owners. Vans DOES study problems for a solution, we have the fuel tank mod and the nose wheel pant fix as examples. We should be thankful that these solutions are carefully studied and proven before we are informed of a fix. I respectfully disagree that such problems should be kept secret from the rest of the owners as you suggest you will do John, but I can however respect your decision to do it that way.
So, I don't feel I deserve a spanking for sharing information that I felt other owners should be aware of. From some of the responses, one would think I was selling a fix for the problem and promoting the problem. I am selling NOTHING, and if you don't like to hear about a problem, I suggest you not read the posts...
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJohn
Don, I can't help but wonder how you became a clearing house for this and other information about the RV-12. How is it that you get emails from people about this problem and others? And who are these shadowy people out there that confide in you, but don't have the guts to identify themselves?
As to your closing statement - you are beginning to sound a lot like the fellow in Florida, who unfortunatley passed away some time ago, that was always carping about Van's Aircraft, but yet continued to build RV-12's. I can't help but wonder why you are building a Van's product, if the others you named are so superior.
As to this thread - It is so full of rumors and guesses as to be pretty much useless, it seems to me. If there is a real problem, other than pilots making bad landings, then factual and detailed information needs to go directly to Van's for their evaluation and action. I will inspect my airplane next time to the hangar, and if I find any cracks I will deal with Van's directly, and I urge all other responsible owners to do the same.
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09-03-2012, 09:13 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 1,647
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Well, lets hope that those who have experienced these problems will follow through on Scott's request to get the facts in to Vans via the reporting system. Hopefully they will also overcome their reluctance to advise the general RV-12 community via the forum when some issue that potentially affects aircraft safety occurs. It shouldn't be left to Don, in this case, to flag the issue second-hand, but I for one am glad he did. I'm also very pleased that Scott takes the time to keep a semi-official eye on what goes on here, and have no doubt that Vans will come up with an engineered fix if one is required.
Maybe this particular issue is a design problem, maybe it's due to pilot error, and maybe it's something else. Whatever the cause, the cracks, wrinkles and crushed brake lines seem real enough to get my attention. Consequently I'm happy to wade through the inevitable speculation, mull over the good and bad ideas, possibly contribute something if it might be useful, or otherwise sit back and be entertained by the public debate. That's what a forum is for, and as builders we're very fortunate to have this one. Thanks DR.
__________________
rgmwa
RV-12LR 912ULS
120346
Last edited by rgmwa : 09-03-2012 at 09:25 AM.
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09-03-2012, 09:38 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, TX (DFW)
Posts: 1,164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcems
[IMG]  [/IMG]
It appears now that I have 4 cracks
Brad Stiefvater
Salem SD
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Holy mackarel! That ain't pretty! 
__________________
Gary Robertson
Arlington, TX
RV-12 Built / Sold / Flying
Currently Flying: Cessna Skyhawk 172
Rebuilding a true barn find J-3 Cub
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09-03-2012, 10:24 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Davenport, IA
Posts: 1,390
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJohn
As to your closing statement - you are beginning to sound a lot like the fellow in Florida, who unfortunately passed away some time ago, that was always carping about Van's Aircraft, but yet continued to build RV-12's. I can't help but wonder why you are building a Van's product, if the others you named are so superior.
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Well said. I had the EXACT same thoughts. Yes, I want the the facts but DO NOT want supposition or exaggeration. I can do without the abrasiveness. Maybe Don will take a lesson. Most on this forum dismissed anything the fellow in Florida posted, rest his soul.
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09-03-2012, 11:30 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: La Feria Texas
Posts: 3,822
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Come on now Marty, the rules say we are supposed to keep it civil and avoid personal attacks. "Maybe Don will take a lesson" certainly infers I am stupid and need to learn - not to post bad things that happen to our planes I guess. I can find no place I have offered "supposition or exaggeration" or even "abrasiveness". Read back only a couple of posts where I said " I believe the RV12 is the best LSA out there, bar none" yet you try to put me in that unhappy group that constantly carps about the RV12, as though I am just a chronic complainer.
Apparently you are unhappy that under some set of circumstances, YOUR plane might fail like those I posted for friends, and if you can convince the forum that I am dumb, then the problem must be false as well..
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09-03-2012, 11:52 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Irvine, CA
Posts: 416
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Five?...or six?
Regarding the photo in post 97 (most recently)... I'm not certain, but it appears there may be the beginning of yet another crack. Look at the lower left-most rivet, at the 11 o'clock position. Tiny, but it does look to me like it.
__________________
John Halcrow
Tustin, CA
RV-12 120682
Emp/TC done; Wings done; Fuse kit done
"History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives." --Abba Eban
Paid up until Aug 2021
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09-03-2012, 12:21 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Bosschenhoofd, Netherlands
Posts: 152
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More wrinkles
Inpected our 12 as a result of this thread.
We also found a wrinkle just above and below our right wing and a minor dent in the brake line.
Cannot find any cracks in the beam.
We have about 55 hours flight time.
We hard no hard landings, but need to use the brakes quite often to prevent overshoot on short grass strips.
We will remove the wings and inpect for further damage tomorrow
We will report this to VAN's if they send us the ASME form which we never had.
We don't like it very much
__________________
Jack Netherlands
PH-SEP and PH-SES
RV12 #120519 and #120790
Hobbs 700+ hours and 400+ hours
Dual SV1000 Skyview 15, Pocket FMS and Powerflarm 6.0 (ADSB)
RV10 PH-USN Hobbs 350 hours
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