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07-11-2012, 06:12 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,010
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Think About This From Another Perspective
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailvi767
There is no need to level off on the go around. Once you go around you want to start climbing ASAP. You will have no problem in a RV retracting the flaps while climbing. Attempting to level the aircraft off could easily result in a decent if you get some other distraction which could be a very bad thing. The level off is what is also leading to your flap overspeed issue.
George
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Most go-Arounds happen at short fields (you should practice these on longer runways, using a "target", but most pilots stop doing this once they've gotten their first ticket). I would not recommend a pitch to climb attitude without first acquiring sufficient speed to climb. This is especially true on a short field approach. You're not only asking for a stall, but you're also actually increasing the distance required to clear obstacles. Yes, many RVs, particularly those with 360's and CS props, can be pitched high immediately on takeoff, but the consequence of an engine failure at that point would be catastrophic (you can try it out at altitude). First Vx to clear obstacles (or at least 50 ft AGL, then Vy.
Whether I'm doing a go-around from 10 feet or 200 feet AGL, my speed shouldn't be substantially different, especially on a short field. I always want to make certain that I have sufficient speed before I pitch up. On a go-around, particularly on a short field, that's only going to happen if I level first.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
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07-11-2012, 09:04 AM
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 1,324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCHunt
Anyway, just having fun with an old never-ending-debate. 
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Me too, the physics haven't changed recently, it still takes power to climb and the big picture is about energy management.
John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
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07-11-2012, 09:26 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: St. Paul, MN.
Posts: 4,792
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I'm interested in how the 9 compares to, say, the 7.,
When I was doing transition training with Tom Berge. He showed me that the RV can climb just fine with full flaps. His point, which I was to come to understand better, was that on a go-around, don't worry about the flaps.
Airspeed is obviously important, but as I headed for some trees on the left of the field, another item became just as important -- rudder.... lots and lots and LOTS of right rudder to counteract the torque.
The flaps? Not so much.
How does the 9 compare?
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07-11-2012, 09:29 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oakland CA
Posts: 771
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For me it all depends on how far into the flare you are. A friend of mine (who is a million times better and more experienced and certificated pilot than I am) and I have gone up in my plane and we do a game to see who can be lowest and slowest over the runway without letting the wheels touch. When you're that far behind the power curve I have found that there is definitely an area in the flap retraction cycle where you lose or gain lift. If you're really close to the runway and really slow and heavy you definitely want full power and get the nose to a normal climb angle, in this case decidedly lower than where it has been for most of the length of the runway  My flaps retract fully with a flick of a switch. When my friend does this transition it's all very smooth, when I do it there is definitely a pitch transition/burble that happens around 20 degrees. There is also the possible factor of ground effect, even with the short wings. On the other end of the scale, when not that far behind the power curve, full power and full flaps is what many of us have used in phase one for the seemingly mandatory VFe structural test  The conclusion I've come to is that for a normal go around I just go to full power, retract the flaps and slowly pitch for a climb attitude. Slowly, because the flaps have to be fully retracted for climb attitude to look right.
And + 1 for throttle controls glideslope, at least in this VFR pilot's brain...it just seems easier for me when I'm slowed down.
__________________
All Best
Jeremy Constant
RV7A "Stella Luna" ECI IO-360 WW200RV Pmags 360hrs
VAF 2019 paid plus some for those who can't
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07-11-2012, 09:58 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Charlotte NC
Posts: 1,167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terrykohler
Most go-Arounds happen at short fields (you should practice these on longer runways, using a "target", but most pilots stop doing this once they've gotten their first ticket). I would not recommend a pitch to climb attitude without first acquiring sufficient speed to climb. This is especially true on a short field approach. You're not only asking for a stall, but you're also actually increasing the distance required to clear obstacles. Yes, many RVs, particularly those with 360's and CS props, can be pitched high immediately on takeoff, but the consequence of an engine failure at that point would be catastrophic (you can try it out at altitude). First Vx to clear obstacles (or at least 50 ft AGL, then Vy.
Whether I'm doing a go-around from 10 feet or 200 feet AGL, my speed shouldn't be substantially different, especially on a short field. I always want to make certain that I have sufficient speed before I pitch up. On a go-around, particularly on a short field, that's only going to happen if I level first.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
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Terry, We may be talking about to slightly different things here. There is a rejected landing which is something that happens in close and very low and slow and a go around. My learning has always been a go around is something that happens after a missed approach. A rejected landing is what happens when you screw up the last few feet which is something I have a great deal of practice at in the RV. Even a 150 HP RV6 should have no trouble on a go around with a power application and a smooth rotation to a reasonable climb attitude with flap retraction after the pitch attitude for climb is established.
If you are IMC and are doing a go around I still maintain that a attempt to level the aircraft at the missed approach point is a mistake. I know I have never been taught that in any aircraft I have flown. As I mentioned at the start of this post there may be some terminology differences between a go around and a rejected landing.
George
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07-11-2012, 12:51 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Keller, TX
Posts: 151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCHunt
And then there's gliders. How do you control the airspeed in a glider?
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No problem!! Point the nose where you want to touch down and the speed brake handle is now a throttle - back to slow down and forward to speed up. 
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07-12-2012, 07:15 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Posts: 3,932
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As an interesting aside to the never-ending debate, when flying formation, you use power for forward-aft position (ie. for short term airspeed changes) and pitch for up-down changes (ie. for short term elevation gain or loss). Effectively, throttle for speed, and pitch for altitude. But it's not sustainable for more than a couple of seconds.
__________________
Rob Prior
1996 RV-6 "Tweety" C-FRBP (formerly N196RV)
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07-12-2012, 10:46 AM
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Senior Curmudgeon
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
Posts: 15,420
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Going back to the original question, my flap switch is close enough to the throttle---on purpose---that I can hit it with my thumb as I push the throttle all the way in.
With the Show Planes Flap Position System, all I need to do is hit the switch up, and it will retract the flaps all the way.
Quick, easy, and allows me to concentrate on flying the plane.
__________________
Mike Starkey
VAF 909
Rv-10, N210LM.
Flying as of 12/4/2010
Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011 
Sold after 240+ wonderful hours of flight.
"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
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07-12-2012, 12:10 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 1,125
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Thanks for the replies. The next time I go up this weekend I'm going to try the various recommendations at altitude.
Thanks again!
__________________
Kelly Johnson
San Jose, CA
RV-9A
Pink slip issued: 5/7/12
First flight: 5/28/12, Memorial Day.
Phase I Complete: 8/18/12!
2020 donation: complete
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07-12-2012, 11:54 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Inver Grove Hgts, MN
Posts: 329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCHunt
John, may I respectfully disagree: When on an ILS, in the good ole days flying my Boeing XXX, or my Piper Warrior, I would always trim for airspeed, and vary the throttle to maintain glideslope.
I think it is my Navy training for carrier landings that taught me that. And many of my cockpit-mates commented on how closely I stayed to the appropriate airspeed on final.
You say toe-may-toe, I say toe-mah-toe.
Whatever works. In reality, it is the proper combination of pitch, or angle-of-attack, and power that makes the plane perform as the pilot wishes.
With the exception of cruise flight, where the power is fixed, I prefer to "pitch for airspeed."
And pitch is more powerful: If you and I fly in any powered airplane, and I control the pitch with you controlling the throttle, I can maintain any given airspeed, and you can't change the airspeed with the throttle.
And then there's gliders. How do you control the airspeed in a glider?
Anyway, just having fun with an old never-ending-debate. 
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An autopilot will generally fly a good ILS every time, and will "pitch to the glidepath" and "power (if available and variable) to speed". If the autopilot does such a good job, why not do it the way the autopilot does it? Why fly above and below the glideslope to hold speed? A visual approach is the same, only your desired path to the runway is defined by visual cues. 5,000 hours ago an instructor I had told me to "aim at the touchdown spot with the elevator inputs and as long as you weren't at idle or full throttle, control the speed with the power. This cured forever a problem I'd had with landings. (Sorry for the "thread creep").
__________________
Mike Hilger
RV-6 N207AM w/G3X, 1,600 hours +
South St. Paul, MN (KSGS)
A&P, EAA Tech Counselor
We're all here because we're not all there...
Last edited by rvsxer : 07-12-2012 at 11:57 PM.
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